Why did the Nazgul not succeed in Bree and on Weathertop?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

It is incredulous that over the long years that no one - all those chief foes of the Nazgul that *created* the bright blades carried by the hobbits - hadn't bagged one of them.

That and the fact that the person who prophesied the end of the Witch King was himself not a Man but an Elf. One would think there would have been many non-men who would have had a chance (although what was meant by "man" has certainly provoked many a heated discussion, all by itself).

But this often seems to be the nature of prophecy, and fate: seemingly endless possibilities are blown because there is an intended person (or persons) who are to fulfill the prophecy, and no one else. Thousands of others who fill the criteria can be in what seems the right place and the right time, but not succeed because they are not, in actuality, the Intended One. This could go on and on into a debate over the definitions of fate or destiny within Tolkien's work, but that's a long discussion that I've seen before, and never with what anyone felt was a satisfying conclusion. In this case, the WK himself believed in the prophecy, enough to quote it on the field of battle. By the point he faced Eowyn and Merry, I think he had seen enough of hobbits to dismiss them as a threat to himself, but if Frodo was his first encounter with one -- especially one willing to fight -- it might have given him considerable pause. As far as the others go, they do not seem to be as strong, especially in terms of leadership, as the WK. Just my impression, of course.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

But this often seems to be the nature of prophecy, and fate: seemingly endless possibilities are blown because there is an intended person (or persons) who are to fulfill the prophecy, and no one else. Thousands of others who fill the criteria can be in what seems the right place and the right time, but not succeed because they are not, in actuality, the Intended One.

Sounds like prophecy is a little too self-fulfilling and circular. Who is the intended one? The one that fulfills the prophecy. Who fulfills the prophecy? Why, the intended one, of course.

That all said, I now have issue with the 'Frodo is a threat' argument. If on Weathertop Frodo is seen as a possible threat, however remote, and seemingly the Nazgul have some knowledge regarding Hobbits' inherent resistance (Gollum, Gaffer, Maggot), and then later, knowing that no hobbit wraith came a calling, would have to realize that Frodo survived the poisoned blade, why then would the Witch-King ignore Merry on the battlefield?

In this case, the WK himself believed in the prophecy, enough to quote it on the field of battle.

He just used it as yet another weapon - to demoralize his opponents. Had two men attacked and bested him, the Witch-King prophecy would have been fulfilled and we'd be none the wiser. "We are no man!"


And welcome to the Downs, Ibrîniðilpathânezel and Nazgûl-king.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sounds like prophecy is a little too self-fulfilling and circular. Who is the intended one? The one that fulfills the prophecy. Who fulfills the prophecy? Why, the intended one, of course.

That's always the catch-22 with prophecies whenever they don't come to pass, isn't it? "Oh, it just [/I]looked[/I] like that person was the intended one. There must've been something we didn't know about that was off."

And in some ways, that is the same kind of circular reasoning that could be running through the Nazguls' heads: This hobbit is holding the Ring. We're supposed to get the Ring away from him and get it back to Sauron to make him powerful again. But as long as Sauron doesn't have the Ring... well, he doesn't have the Ring, so this guy who does have it might just be a threat, 'cause, after all, nobody else has ever actually claimed the Ring and tried to use it, so how do we know this guy couldn't just up and decide, "hey, the Ring's mine, I'm gonna use it, so I'm gonna be your new master." If he does that and he's ticked off at us for trying to kill him or kidnap him, we could be in BIG trouble....

Okay, that made my head spin... or maybe it's the sinuses....

And thanks for the welcome, alatar.

[Sir Kohran]

The thing is that the Nazgul simply weren't particularly powerful. I mean, what power did they actually have? They carry swords, have nasty voices and that's pretty much it. Also they have a surprisingly high amount of weaknesses - fire, water and the very name of Elbereth. Heck, Aragorn by himself drove off five of them with a *torch*. He was able to make them flee without even drawing steel.

The Nazgul are somewhat like terrorists; the paranoia, uncertainty and overall psychological effect associated with them are in many ways more powerful than the actual beings themselves.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, let's not underestimate the value of fear as a weapon.

Tolkien understood this thoroughly, having survived the Somme. When he spoke of Gondor's men under the Nazguls' wings going fetal, 'thinking only of crawling and hiding, and of death,' I'm sure he had seen that very thing, and probably experienced a touch of it himself.

Napoleon described battle as 'two large groups of men trying to frighten each other.' And of course Boney knew exactly what he was talking about. A battle is not won by killing everyone on the other side (usually only a small percentage get killed)- but rather inflicting so much punishment on them that their morale- that complex of factors involving discipline, training, tactical position, loyalty, esprit-de-corps etc etc etc, gives way to the basic instinct for self-preservation. You win by making the other side give up.

The so-called 'Third Generation' of board wargames began to incorporate this understanding back in the 1970s; units had a 'morale factor' which could be raised or lowered by various things, and when reduced to a certain point retreat, rout or surrender ensued. Many, many times I would have *loved* to have a couple of 'morale-killer' units which did no physical harm, but simply hit every enemy within range with a -5 morale penalty.

And that's just what the Nazgul were.