The Scourge of The Dark Side...Tolkien and Modernism

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

The problem is that they would argue that Tolkien is doing exaclty the same thing, equating evil with technological progress and good with the simple, hobbitic lifestyle.

I guess I didn't make myself clear: what I was trying to say is that as well as being simplistic in itself, this model does not represent reality in that the world is not just divided into two camps of "the old" vs "the new".

For example– very many people who consider themselves left-wing and therefore socially progressive are highly suspicious of technology, medicine and science in general. Where do they fit? (Note that Tolkien has always been beloved of hippies.)

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

This of coarse is in fact an assumption on there part-they assume Tolkien is making some sort of social statement. However, it may not even be this concious...they would and do say that regardless of Tolkien's intentions the work is inherently infused with these "conservative" "bad" "backward" ideas, that yes they equate at least with antiprogress and badness.

Therefore, they (Im using 'they' a lot) say that Tolkien's book, regardless of his intent, is inherently backward, conservative, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a 'retard'(to quote the star wars board)!!

This subtle argument is the most difficult to tackle.

Not really. What they seem to be saying is that no work which does not actively promote their own particular views can be taken seriously.

Frankly, I think that's a pathetic attitude– and I am a humanist!

[tumhalad2]

I would agree with that...I suppose my trouble is that Brin et al write convincingly and with a great deal of conviction. Its rhetorically good, one might say. But yes, sorry I see what you are saying and I take your point.

I want to point out I am not FOR these people, I do not agree with them, I am just working through these issues in my head, because I do enjoy Tolkien very much.

As I say, despite all of Brin and other's rants, I keep coming back to Tolkien, I keep returning to this universe that in so many ways inspires me.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

well no, i suppose the point is that the star wars forumers are attempting to defend their own interest by means of attacking another which they perceive to be inherently more conservative, and thus bad.

Perhaps it makes them feel better, lol

Certainly... but I think they're falling into a trap: instead of addressing the argument properly, they're putting forward a substitute victim... then using a lot of special pleading and nitpicking to "prove" that what applies to Lord of the Rings somehow doesn't apply to Star Wars. It's not an easy position to sustain. If you ask me, they're laying themselves wide open to future attacks.

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

I want to point out I am not FOR these people, I do not agree with them, I am just working through these issues in my head, because I do enjoy Tolkien very much.

As do I... but I'm mainly arguing because I'm a.) a Star Wars fan and b.) probably fairly close to most of these people in a lot of my views... which is why I find their lack of faith... er, I mean tolerance... disturbing.

[tumhalad2]

haha yes well, I was rather flaberghasted with the vitriocity that the Star Wars forumers were displaying...they seemed to be pretty desperate lol. Yes, I'm upset by attacks on Star Wars as well, though I suppose I was particulary peeved to see fellow fans attacking the Lord of the Rings to offset their own insecurities.