Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The only version of the '54 map I have is in my H-M 2nd/12th (ca. 1974), where the name is still Hithaiglin. This was probably a mistake on CT's part in his great haste: the mountains are not labeled at all on JRRT's original, and their Elvish name does not appear anywhere in the text. Its first appearance, already Hithaeglir, is in the Annals of Aman ca. 1951. My very limited resources don't indicate that the name was changed before the 1980 redrawing.

However, the original '54 maps have on occasion been silently corrected. In my 50th Anniversary copy on the large-scale RK map it is now Cirith Ungol, as opposed to Kirith Ungol still present in the '74. Also, relatively early on, the Shire map was altered (somewhat crudely) to get Brandy Hall on the correct side of the Buckland Road.

[davem]

Any road up..... (as we say here in God's own county ) back to the plot.

One thing I wanted to bring up, mainly in response to earlier attacks on the sound effects is how well most of them are done. Yes, its easy to pick up on the ones that don't qute come off, but in the main they are exceptionally good - so good that actually you don't notice them - what I mean is the natural sounds, from birdsong, to echoing corridors & halls, to the movement of furniture, are all so perfectly done that you simply accept them. I think that's why the odd bad effect sticks out like a sore thumb.

In the Church House recording Penny Leicester stressed how much effort went into creating the effects - particularly the Moria sequence, & apparently none of the Orc cries over the entire series are ever duplicated - all are unique. Peter Woodthorpe also spoke about how much effort went in to creating the effects. I doubt the BBC would ever put so much effort into a radio series now. So, I think the truth is that its because the effects in this series are generally so good that when they do occasionally fail the seem to fail big time. So, a few questions for Brian

One aspect of the production that I haven't heard very much about is the part played by the old Radiophonics workshop - I mean, how much time did they put in - & was there much experimentation - I don't suppose you can just come up with a Ringwraith voice, or the sound of a Balrog in a couple of minutes.

Oh, & one other thing - I know the Ring sound was created by running a finger around the rim of a wine glass - but who came up with that idea? It sounds so right, but would any of us have thought of doing that?

And, finally for now - what was the largest number of actors in the studio at one time - was the whole Fellowship ever in the studio together?

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by davem

So, a few questions for Brian

One aspect of the production that I haven't heard very much about is the part played by the old Radiophonics workshop - I mean, how much time did they put in - & was there much experimentation - I don't suppose you can just come up with a Ringwraith voice, or the sound of a Balrog in a couple of minutes.

Please remember with all these answers this was a long time ago (27 years) so memories are hazy, patchy and often unreliable...

The Radiophonic Workshop actually created relatively few effects: Eagles, the Balrog, the Crack of Doom etc. Most of the effects were created by treating natural recordings: the Ringwraith horses hooves and voices etc and usually by using the technology in the studio, rather than the workshop. The reason for this was the producers' and adapters' desire for the story to be treated as realistically as possible.

Originally Posted by davem

Oh, & one other thing - I know the Ring sound was created by running a finger around the rim of a wine glass - but who came up with that idea? It sounds so right, but would any of us have thought of doing that?

My memory is that the Workshop came up with several effects for the Ring and I seem to remember Stephen Oliver experimenting with sounds on the violin when we were recording all the music tracks - which were recorded before the drama sessions began. Memory tells me it was Stephen or a member of the orchestra who came up with the idea of the glass and the sound was recorded during one of those music recording sessions which we held at the BBC's studios at Maida Vale.

Originally Posted by davem

And, finally for now - what was the largest number of actors in the studio at one time - was the whole Fellowship ever in the studio together?

Goodness... Well, the party scene, the Council of Elrond, the battles and so forth involved a lot of actors - the principles, obviously, but also perhaps a dozen members of the RDC (Radio Drama Company) the repertory of players who (at the time but no longer) were on call for productions and who gallantly played all the 'audio extras' such as the Orcs and other gangs and crowds.

Yes, the Fellowship (prior to the 'Breaking') would have been together pretty much all the time. After the death of Boromir, the schedule was more fractured but all the cast involved in an episode would be there for the rehearsal (usually half a day) but might then come in at different times during the following day of recording so as to avoid having people sitting around for hours with nothing to do.

The recording schedule ran as follows:

Day 1: Morning - rehearse Episode 1; Afternoon - begin recording Ep 1

Day 2: Morning - complete recording Ep 1; Afternoon - rehearse Ep 2

Day 3: Morning and afternoon - record Episode 2

And so on...

A handful of particularly complex episodes were allocated a TWO full days to rehearse and record! It doesn't sound like much - and it was an exhausting schedule - but no drama production today would have the luxury of that much time!

[Lalwendë]

Finally I can post something on here after Ye Gods conspired against it - first I couldn't listen to this episode when davem did as family were over and then the Downs went into a strange worm-hole and existed in the multiverse...

What got to me about this episode was how thoroughly scary it was. There's something satisfyingly right about listening to a story of a group of people going into a 'dark place' when you only have the 'dark place' of your own imagination to picture them in. Why are underground scenes in books so frightening? I'm thinking also of the tunnels and caves in The Weirdstone of Brisingamen, the tunnel in The Amber Spyglass, the Department of Mysteries in the Ministry of Magic. Brrrr...I think it's because your imagination is also firmly in that kind of place.

So the Balrog was 100 times more weird. It's not just another 'beast' to be conquered in the manner of a game of D&D but a real, unearthly Maia - a worthy opponent for Gandalf to be terrified of. That's partly the fact that it was unseen again, but also due to the use of sound and script at that point. Everything is happening at once! It's no 'set-piece battle' but a real, chaotic struggle. Gandalf is gone in the blink of an eye. That's how it was in the book and I was pleased to see that this sense of sudden shock came over very well.

I also got thinking about how Gandalf wants to hang about and read the Book of Mazarbul. Handy of course, for the plot, but if that was a real situation I wouldn't be hanging about while Gandalf wasted 'running for the hills time' to read a book. Would you?

And I'm very pleased that the Warg encounter was included. One thing that was disappointing in the films was this sense that the journey to Caradhras was just a jolly hiking expedition, but here we see that the wilds really are wild. The bow-string sound effect was funny though - one of the creaky ones I reckon

[davem]

(Well, this seems to be one of those odd threads where we don't get many participants, but loads of readers - we're now approaching 2,000 views!! I can only assume that the reason is that most Downers haven't heard the series & hopefully this will inspire them to get hold of a set.)

Transcript: http://www.tolkienradio.com/mirrorofgaladriel.html

This episode takes us to the end of the Fellowship of the Ring. We begin with Gandalf's fall in Moria, & end with Boromir's fall at Parth Galen. In between we pass through Lorien & meet Gollum for the first time.

I have to admit that what I regret most is the omission of Mirrormere. And the inclusion of Aragorn's parody of Baby Bunting! - that has always made me groan & I suspect it is only by reason of his heritage (& his big sword) that he got away with it.....

Lorien must have a been challenge. How do you get across the experience of the Elvish realm in sound alone? Yet I'm not sure that a visual representation can work much better - I don't think the movie captured the magic either. What is missing in both is the subjective, psychological dimension. Jackson stated that if he had been writing the story from scratch he wouldn't have had Lorien in the story at that point, so near the end of the first movie, because it breaks the tension. In many ways the Lorien episode 'mirrors' the Old Forest/Barrow Downs episode, & I wonder whether something is lost in this adaptation by having omitted that first woodland adventure?

I did like the way Celeborn was played by Simon Cadell (& that the BBC budget stretched to employing an actor, rather than, as with the movie, having to resort to a robot...), though you do half expect him to greet the Fellowship with an awkward 'Hi de Hi!'...... No, unfair. Cadell's performance was subtle & informed. Which brings me to a question about the 'bit players' - how much background were they given as to their characters, & what was happening? And how many of them were like Michael Hordern, with no real clue about what was happening? Marian Diamond's Galadriel has always been one of my favourite performances - I love her voice.

Oh yes, were any of the actors fans of the story beforehand? I know Peter Woodthorpe said at Church House that he only read the parts of the book in which Gollum appeared & didn't really know the other events of the story.

I do love Ian Holm's performance in this episode - from his initial expression of loss, through his awkwardness first over Aragorn attempting to treat his 'wound' & later in his stumbling recitation of his poem about Gandalf. When his voice breaks at the 'old man in a battered hat' I always get a lump in my throat....

What else? No Amon Hen. I wonder why (of course, one always assumes 'time constraints' as the reason for cuts, but I do wonder whether anything got cut simply because there was no way of dramatising it effectively). However, I did think the scene between Boromir & Frodo was brialliantly done. Michael Graham Cox conveyed all the pain, confusion, & egotistic desire of Boromir perfectly, the sense of a man in a state of absolute hopelessness grasping at what he feels is his people's only chance for survival. MGC is often ignored in discussions of the series, but I think he is absolutely brilliant here.

Anyway, that's me intro - hope I haven't stolen anyone's ideas....

[ArathornJax]

Actually so far on the Downs, this is one of my favorite threads and probably the one I post the most on. On other threads I tend to come in after they have started and being new here (on a board of many long term members) I guess I am still trying to figure out what has been discussed and what has not since it seems some are core about not wanting to get into previous posts/issues. I will say though that out of the 3 LOTR sites I post on, this is the one that approaches what I want, good solid thinking, reflection and use of the many text sources to discuss this wonderful world.

That is one reason I love this thread! It makes me think about what I am listening to. As a former executive and now an educator I enjoy escaping to Tolkien to make me reflect on life itself. Weird I know. Enough to that stuff though.

Davem hit on some of the points I would have brought up so I'll try some other angles. I noticed that the poems/songs by Legolas (Nimrodel) was left out and I felt that was a wonderful edit from the text. The story of Amroth and Nimrodel though important to the lore of Middle Earth, does not move the story forward.

I concur on Ian Holm's part. I love his acting/voice over here and though I don't get a lump, I feel the pit in the stomach when I hear Frodo struggle at the end of his poem/lament/memoir of Gandalf.

I enjoyed Celeborn's portrayl also and felt it was much better than the film.

The mirror scene was extremely well done and not over dramatic. I wonder for those who have heard this adaptation and only scene the movie what they thought? I liked how Galaderial is in this scene and it is not over the top.

I also think that Douglas Livingston did a great job with Gimli here. His voice over on leaving Lorien and his thoughts on his Lady made me really think of that Chivarious love of the Medieval Period.

Besides no Amon Hem, the shooting of the Nazgul was deleted and I thought that was a significant event to not included. That incident combined with the orc voices increases the tension and forces the company to move more swiftly to their decision. I was sad that in both the movie (even the extended edition) that was not included nor in the radio adapation.

Finally the last interaction of Frodo and Sam I think provides a great insight into their relationship while conveying a sense of hope in that relationship. I could hear Frodo's relief when Sam demands to go or to put hole in all the boats and Ian did a great job here, and kudos should be given to William Nighey.

A thought on the background noises. What I have realized that I really appreciate in the production is that for me, the vast majority of the sounds do not distract me from the acting that is occurring. I am more focused on the inflection, the tension, the relief, the sorrow that is conveyed by the actors and their voices. I think this is perhaps on the harder challenges in audio only, that of portraying a mood, a feeling, an emotion without having visual aide. I think it is even harder in today's world where so much is visual from gaming systems, to television, to cell phones, to the internet and computers to the ease of video conferencing or netconferencing. We are moving into a period where it is very critical to still be able listen and gather information off voice. That is one thing I love about this series. It is a medium to do this. That is why on long trips, we take this series and the many book on cd's we own with us, and have our kids listen.

Anyway, my thoughts.

[Lalwendë]

I've remembered what the scary sound effect for the Balrog reminded me of. A blow torch! Is that what it was? Put through an echo of some kind?

Anyway...

Doesn't Gimli shine through in this episode? Why on earth Jackson chose to go with portraying him as some vertically challenged buffoon I'll never know but it doesn't half show up as a travesty after you listen to this Gimli! And I love that nice touch where there's a moment of silence after he's waxed lyrical over Galadriel after they leave in the boats, following which he's brought back to reality sharpish as the boast join the main current of the Anduin. Excellent stuff.

Other characters are better in this, too, such as Galadriel's voice is nicer (I love Cate Blanchett but my only drawback was she sounded too deep, like Margaret Thatcher, as Galadriel ), Haldir is less camp (I kept expecting him to launch into a rendition of an ABBA song in the film) and Celeborn is not a cipher.

I noticed that Galadriel's arms are described too - so she must be wearing a sleeveless gown then? Might not seem like much of note, but I do like to picture what characters may be wearing...

Lothlorien came across as a proper woodland glade too with the soft birdsong in the background.

Now one thing I missed in the radio version was there was not all that much of Boromir, as he seems to get lost in the general conversation, and in the books I like reading about his developing determination to go to Gondor, his developing interest in the Ring and that slight, simmering mistrust of Aragorn. Though that would be hard to portray without the aid of showing him giving glowering looks and so on But finally here we get to see plenty of Boromir! I like how we get plenty of time on his scene with Frodo and how he builds up to that final step; I also like how he's a bit shady and ashamed when he gets back to the rest of them.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by davem

I did like the way Celeborn was played by Simon Cadell (& that the BBC budget stretched to employing an actor, rather than, as with the movie, having to resort to a robot...), though you do half expect him to greet the Fellowship with an awkward 'Hi de Hi!'...... No, unfair. Cadell's performance was subtle & informed.

I was surprised to realise that Cadell had already been in Hi de Hi (1980) when he worked on Rings. But I agree his performance in a small role was strong - and he was at least a real presence, unlike the film.

Originally Posted by davem

Which brings me to a question about the 'bit players' - how much background were they given as to their characters, & what was happening? And how many of them were like Michael Hordern, with no real clue about what was happening? Marian Diamond's Galadriel has always been one of my favourite performances - I love her voice.

Yes, Marian's performance was excellent and she worked wonders in those few short scenes without any radiophonic tricksy stuff. My problem with the film is similar to the reaction I have when Gandalf becomes threatening at Bag End - it is just so unsubtle...

How much were the actors told? Not a great deal, I imagine - the time constraints in the recording sessions were pretty severe. Probably not much more than any actor in a soap opera is given about what is to happen to them. I seem to remember drawing up a list of characters and who they were and various reference books (there were fewer of them then!) were available.

But most of the actors would have been told who/what their character was and - since they didn't have all 26 scripts before the recordings began - would have learned their destiny as each new episode came to them.

Unless, of course, they had read the book...

Originally Posted by davem

Oh yes, were any of the actors fans of the story beforehand? I know Peter Woodthorpe said at Church House that he only read the parts of the book in which Gollum appeared & didn't really know the other events of the story.

I'm trying to remember... Ian Holm, I think, had already read the book and certainly read it in close detail while preparing for the role. David Collings (Legolas) was a devoted fan of the book and knew it well which was a great help in the Fellowship scenes. I'm sure some of the others had read it or seen the truncated Bakshi version. The time available and the fees paid would probably not have induced many who hadn't read the book to do so...

I remember reading, in John (Bilbo) Le Mesurier's posthumous biography, a letter written to a show-biz friend saying something to the effect that he was working on The Lord of the Rings for the BBC, didn't have the faintest idea what it was all about but that it was all very jolly because he was working with old friends like Hordern who also didn't seem to know what was going on...

Which is a bit like real life, I guess...

Originally Posted by davem

What else? No Amon Hen. I wonder why (of course, one always assumes 'time constraints' as the reason for cuts, but I do wonder whether anything got cut simply because there was no way of dramatising it effectively). However, I did think the scene between Boromir & Frodo was brialliantly done. Michael Graham Cox conveyed all the pain, confusion, & egotistic desire of Boromir perfectly, the sense of a man in a state of absolute hopelessness grasping at what he feels is his people's only chance for survival. MGC is often ignored in discussions of the series, but I think he is absolutely brilliant here.

Amon Hen was cut for several reasons: time (always a pressing factor); the necessity to have Frodo soliloquising on the Seat of Seeing - always a difficult thing to achieve on radio; and because the Eye imagery had featured so recently in the Mirror of Galadriel episode where it had similarly been described in a mini-Frodo-monologue...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

Yes, Marian's performance was excellent and she worked wonders in those few short scenes without any radiophonic tricksy stuff. My problem with the film is similar to the reaction I have when Gandalf becomes threatening at Bag End - it is just so unsubtle...

I think Jackson & the writers too often fell into the old 'show, don't tell' trap - film has advantages over radio in that you can show things, but there's always the temptation to show too much - to 'shout' rather than just 'say'. Brian Rosbury described movie Galadriel as a 'screaming sea-green hell-hag' or somesuch. Once again, as with the Balrog, radio allows the listener to visualise the characters/events as they wish, & not to have a director impose an image on them. Galadriel should not go 'psycho' at that point - however good the sfx a director has may be.

I'm trying to remember... Ian Holm, I think, had already read the book and certainly read it in close detail while preparing for the role. David Collings (Legolas) was a devoted fan of the book and knew it well which was a great help in the Fellowship scenes.
I remember reading, in John (Bilbo) Le Mesurier's posthumous biography, a letter written to a show-biz friend saying something to the effect that he was working on The Lord of the Rings for the BBC, didn't have the faintest idea what it was all about but that it was all very jolly because he was working with old friends like Hordern who also didn't seem to know what was going on...

Hmm, you know, listening to the Church House recording, I got the feeling that David Collings was in the same position of not really knowing the story. I don't know why - of course, Peter Woodthorpe tended to take over the discussion a bit! Did you have Ian or David doing an 'Ian McKellan', wandering the studio with a copy of the book & making 'suggestions'?

More seriuously - how much of the recording was out of sequence - I think I heard Jane Morgan mention that the last few episodes at least we're recorded in order, but was there a lot of jumping around Bag End one day, Pelenor Fields the next, then Lothlorien the day after, etc...

I didn't realise that John Le Mesurier was in the same boat as Michael Hordern & didn't know what was going on - still, the magic of radio (or Middle-earth) worked in both cases.

Amon Hen was cut for several reasons: time (always a pressing factor); the necessity to have Frodo soliloquising on the Seat of Seeing - always a difficult thing to achieve on radio; and because the Eye imagery had featured so recently in the Mirror of Galadriel episode where it had similarly been described in a mini-Frodo-monologue...

I see what you mean - Frodo's vision on Amon Hen, with the armies massing for the coming war, is one of the scenes from the book that sticks in my mind most strongly, but I don't see that working as a soliloquy, & you can't keep using the narrator to describe what's happening. Was there a temptation to keep resorting to the narrator - I think you hit the right balance, but it must be tempting to avoid the soliloquites, (or giving poor Pippin all the obvious questions to ask!) by just having the narrator tell the listener what's happening? Were there points at which you struggled over when to use a soliloquy & when to use the narrator - in other words did you only use the narrator when you couldn't use a character, or were there points where you could have written a scenes for the characters, but chose to use the narrator instead? What I'm getting at is did you decide to have a narrator in the series because there were things you couldn't handle any other way - was he a last resort - or was he seen as another character whose role was essential to telling the story?