Why destroy Laketown's bridge?

[alatar]

Just a quick thought before I'm engaged at getting the kids off to bed: Why do we assume that it's Smaug's intent to destroy Laketown? As I stated earlier, why wouldn't he want to play with the mice a little while, and why sink all of that treasure - regardless if it were large or small - into the lake where he could not go?

Keep in mind that dragons, methinks, are much like cats.

alatar runs off before Bethberry sees him.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Just a quick thought before I'm engaged at getting the kids off to bed: Why do we assume that it's Smaug's intent to destroy Laketown? As I stated earlier, why wouldn't he want to play with the mice a little while, and why sink all of that treasure - regardless if it were large or small - into the lake where he could not go?

Keep in mind that dragons, methinks, are much like cats.

alatar runs off before Bethberry sees him.

Now that's just plain erroneous, al. Everyone knows that cats do not need to resort to breathing fire in order to draw respect, awe, fielty, obseisance. All it takes is a flick of the tail.

I had always assumed that the command to cut the bridges (easily done if they are suspension bridges hung with rope) represented both the muddled nature of Laketown's defenses, due to poor leadership, coupled with a sort of seige mentality, a bit perhaps like that at Masada.

I'm sure that under such duress enterprising young lads would have worked out the Middle earth equivalent of SuperSoakers, which could well have proven effective, given his desire to avoid water, in holding off Smaug.

Such weapons likely would not ressemble the water pistols of today but more likely be something akin to a . . . water sabre or lance, perhaps even a sort of water Aeglos. Their whereabouts would of course remain unknown to this day.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Would the quickest escape route not be by boat? I am just guessing that they did not keep horses in Esgaroth. . .

Mac quite correctly points out that no body said that Smaug had to land on the bridge. The thing is that if he could slowly aproach the city via the bridge hos level of destruction would be much higher than attacking it from above. . . You grap a bow and arrow, stand up and shoot it at a dummy, then do the same while running around in circles, which one is easier?

The only way that Smaug would have had the same advantage attacking from the air, would have been if he had the flight ability as a helicopter and if he was equally vournrable from every angle.

That being said I think the burning of the bridge was written because it was simple war stradegy and we all know that Tolkien had some experience with this.

I am sorry if I have brought nothing new to this discustion.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Hello all.

The reason the Lake Towners destroyed their own bridge was a mix of battlefield tactics and good sense. First off, however:

Just how did they destroy that bridge so quickly in the few moments it took Smaug to arrive and attack the town?

The Hobbit reads "the bridge was thrown down and destroyed." I personally would presume it was by burning. Although "thrown down" appears to indicate it was ripped apart, Tolkien uses the word "destroy". If it was ripped down, Tolkien would have used words like "broken" instead, which seems to me to indicate it was burned. It would certainly make sense.

And now on to their motives for destroying the bridge.

It is simply good sense. I was watching a television program last night about escape scenarios in sporting arenas. The sporting arenas are unimportant; the point is it struck me that in an emergency, the first thing someone thinks of is to run and get out as fast as they can, forgetting about other members of the community besides their relatives. The first few who ran the bridge might have made it, but this would inspire more people to do the same and cause a massacre when Smaug burned the bridge. The authorities must have decided to rip it down to encourage escape by boat, which would give the populace as a whole more chance of survival.

It is good tactics. If the dragon was to attack via land, the defenders would be forced to confront it bit-by-bit, in small groups. Can you possibly imagine having to fire arrows into the maw of the beast, knowing that you are about to be incinerated and that they will merely bounce off? And to heighten the fear, only a few men near you, who you hardly know, are obligated to do this as well, and they are most likely running for their lives? (This is why armies of antiquity used flaming arrows and bolts; it is utterly terrifying to think you might burn alive.) It would be a rout. Even if the men were all into suicide, they would make no impression upon Smaug's armour and would only get one shot each.

I don't think dragons can hover; any soaring lizards of today can not fly efficiently and, more to the point, flying lizards of the dinosaurs' time such as Quetzalcoatlus could not hover or even take off without updrafts, and those creatures were built purely for flight. Smaug is built like a lizard in Tolkien's pictures, not a cat. Lizards such as Australian goannas can not curl up like a dragon would need to do in order to land on buildings. Therefore the dragon would be forced to do a series of fly-bys, with fire breath in short bursts, before wheeling around and attacking again. Indeed, in the book, Smaug is described as "swooping". (Coincidentally, the Hobbit video game has him hovering; as if! ) Smaug would have to exert himself far more than usual thanks to the jewels he weighed himself down with, for far less overall damage, exposing his most vulnerable area to the masses of archers, most likely on rooftops, who could fire all at once.

Think about it, people. This was the absolute best chance the people of Lake Town had. Escape via the bridge is an utterly farsical notion.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Here's a classic picture of Smaug.



You think THAT could land on Esgaroth rooftops? Pssshh...

[davem]

Tolkien's drawing of Laketown.



Not sure how easy it would be to throw down this bridge, though its possible that the pillars supporting it were held in place by the planks, so that if you removed them the pillars would fall sideways into the lake.

[Sauron the White]

A picture says a thousand words.
Thank you to davem for supplying that drawing of Laketown. It does two things to reinforce my point:
1- the bridge is no flimsy thing supported by ropes. It is on strong and thick pillars. And like davem says, it looks like it is not easily destroyed without yet another litany of assumptions about many thing not visibe in the picture or written about in the text.
2- the area of the docks between the water and the buildings is indeed much wider than the actual bridge itself. Given the thinness of Smaug (again based on the other JRRT painting) he could have just as easilly landed on any of that docking space as opposed to that bridge. Which is what I have been saying from the very beginning. Smaug did not need the bridge if his intention was to land and go house to house.

I do think that if this passage had been written for LOTR, it would have been longer, more fully developed and the detail much crisper and clearer. JRRT would have explained what Smaugs intentions were, and perhaps explained why it ws necessary to thrown down and destroy the bridge. JRRT was such a superb writer that I have no doubt it would have made perfect sense.

Having said that, THE HOBBIT was written on a far different level and that type of explaination and detail was simply not there. As a result, we get a rather confusing couple of lines that are open to various different meanings.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Not sure how easy it would be to throw down this bridge, though its possible that the pillars supporting it were held in place by the planks, so that if you removed them the pillars would fall sideways into the lake.

Quite possible. At least the left part of the bridge looks funnily enough like suspension bridge. Another thing is, where that boat on the right thinks it is going? It has nowhere much to land there, and it is positively heading into the dead end part between the town and the bridge. Maybe it expects the bridge to lift in front of it?

[Alfirin]

I don't think Smaug would want to completely destroy Esgaroth, just do enough damge to put the town in fear of him again. The town would be a useful source of tribute to him if not in gold than in food. A dragon as big as Smaugh would need a lot of food and Esgaroth's livestock (not to mention its citizens) would be like a cornucopia of low effort munchies (swoop down grab something and dinner is served; no hunting required)

As to the question of smaug's landing in Esagroth proper, I think it really depends on exactly what shape you think smaug is. If you think he is a stocky lizard shape then your right he can't if you think he is more sinous and flexible in from then he migh be able to coit around a rooftop. and if you belive (as I do) that flying dragons were closer to wyvrens in shape (i.e. that the wings were attached to the front legs not coming independenly out of the back) than smaug migh have landed in a more bipedal sitting, stance, in which case the space needed would be much less (say the size of the town square)

As to the comments on my earlier post I agree I had frogotten about boats however I'm not sure that there would have been sufficient boatage to get everyone off the island. most of the boats would proably have been small fishing vessels capable of holding five or six people tops. The vast majority would still have been stuck without the bridge. Moreover boats would not be as safe and exit as they sound at first. It takes time to set sails and rowing is slow. The hot air, both from Smaug and the burning city would probably have mucked up the wind assuming there was any that night. All the boat leaving at once would have ment serious problems with wakes bulding on each other into waves. Not to mention that anyone in a boat would be more or less a stiing duck should Smaug decide to fly over and spary them with flame. (or if he was really clever slap the water with his tail and make some serios waves. On that subject I'm not sure where everone is getting the idea that spraying water at Smaug would have been an effective weapon. Dragon fire (unlike say a campfire) is most likey self renew and probably cant be squetched by spraying liquid in the mouth (if it could than a dragons flame would go out every time it ate or drank. Water might have been good for putting out the fires Smaug made but any water sprayed at him while he was breathing flame would have probably just evaporated.

[The Sixth Wizard]

I've just found an interesting new line. Bard says, "Cut the bridges!" indicating to me at least that they were in fact dropped, not burnt. My bad...

There's a few problems in your post Alfrin:

I don't think Smaug would want to completely destroy Esgaroth, just do enough damge to put the town in fear of him again. The town would be a useful source of tribute to him if not in gold than in food. A dragon as big as Smaugh would need a lot of food and Esgaroth's livestock (not to mention its citizens) would be like a cornucopia of low effort munchies (swoop down grab something and dinner is served; no hunting required)

As to the question of smaug's landing in Esagroth proper, I think it really depends on exactly what shape you think smaug is. If you think he is a stocky lizard shape then your right he can't if you think he is more sinous and flexible in from then he migh be able to coit around a rooftop. and if you belive (as I do) that flying dragons were closer to wyvrens in shape (i.e. that the wings were attached to the front legs not coming independenly out of the back) than smaug migh have landed in a more bipedal sitting, stance, in which case the space needed would be much less (say the size of the town square)

As to the comments on my earlier post I agree I had frogotten about boats however I'm not sure that there would have been sufficient boatage to get everyone off the island. most of the boats would proably have been small fishing vessels capable of holding five or six people tops. The vast majority would still have been stuck without the bridge. Moreover boats would not be as safe and exit as they sound at first. It takes time to set sails and rowing is slow. The hot air, both from Smaug and the burning city would probably have mucked up the wind assuming there was any that night. All the boat leaving at once would have ment serious problems with wakes bulding on each other into waves. Not to mention that anyone in a boat would be more or less a stiing duck should Smaug decide to fly over and spary them with flame. (or if he was really clever slap the water with his tail and make some serios waves. On that subject I'm not sure where everone is getting the idea that spraying water at Smaug would have been an effective weapon. Dragon fire (unlike say a campfire) is most likey self renew and probably cant be squetched by spraying liquid in the mouth (if it could than a dragons flame would go out every time it ate or drank. Water might have been good for putting out the fires Smaug made but any water sprayed at him while he was breathing flame would have probably just evaporated.

Lets think about it; Smaug was pretty majorly peeved, I can't find a passage but he sure wanted to burn that place down. He didn't spare Dale, which was much closer, for tribute reasons, why would he spare Esgaroth? Dragons such as Smaug tended to sleep all day and were mystical creatures, they may not have needed so much food as they did gold, to sate their hunger.

An overly twisted dragon cannot fly all that well (at least not in take-off). I think Smaug was a mix of the two styles, wyvern and lizard.

Water I believe was used more as a fear element and to douse fires on the houses, not against Smaug. Dragon fire must not have been self-renew, because otherwise Beleriand would still be burning! At least the villagers thought water was a good tool, so it must have helped somewhat.

As for the boats, it is expressly stated that everyone had evacuated via boat, and this is Lake Town we're talking about, boats were how they got around and did business, every family must have had at least one.

[Rikae]

Good points, Sixth, just one thing I'd like to mention:

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The Hobbit reads "the bridge was thrown down and destroyed." I personally would presume it was by burning. Although "thrown down" appears to indicate it was ripped apart, Tolkien uses the word "destroy". If it was ripped down, Tolkien would have used words like "broken" instead, which seems to me to indicate it was burned. It would certainly make sense.

I think this description fits quite well with the suspension-bridge scenario - the bridge could be both "cut" and literally "thrown down". When the bridge is also "destroyed", it could very well be that it was first cut loose, then set on fire (setting it on fire without cutting it loose first risks setting the city on fire as well).

I would imagine the bridges probably had guards posted and these guards, during their initial training, were taught the emergency bridge-destruction plan, shown where the tools were kept and which ropes to cut if the signal was given, something of this nature. Even in the absence of guards, those who lived and worked near the bridges would have been similarly prepared. If the villiage is small enough, everyone might have known said emergency plan and been prepared to execute it.

[Galendor]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

I don't think dragons can hover; any soaring lizards of today can not fly efficiently and, more to the point, flying lizards of the dinosaurs' time such as Quetzalcoatlus could not hover or even take off without updrafts, and those creatures were built purely for flight. Smaug is built like a lizard in Tolkien's pictures, not a cat. Lizards such as Australian goannas can not curl up like a dragon would need to do in order to land on buildings. Therefore the dragon would be forced to do a series of fly-bys, with fire breath in short bursts, before wheeling around and attacking again. Indeed, in the book, Smaug is described as "swooping".

Everyone knows that most if not all dragons have relatively small wings considering their body size, and therefore use a rotary, high-speed and constant wingstroke like a hummingbird or bumblebee to fly. This creates a flying/fighting style that is both humorous and terrifying to behold.

But, as TSW points out, perhaps Smaug had relatively large wings and flew more like a buzzard or condor (primarily soaring and using an occasional vertical wing stroke to recover altitude and velocity). If so, he might need to use a high altitude (i.e. Lonely Mountain) launching site and thermal updrafts to take flight.

So perhaps Smaug did not land in Lake Town because he knew he would not be able to take off again from that low altitude situation, and without a bridge would be trapped unless he could swim (which is unknown).

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galendor

Everyone knows that most if not all dragons have relatively small wings considering their body size, and therefore use a rotary, high-speed and constant wingstroke like a hummingbird or bumblebee to fly. This creates a flying/fighting style that is both humorous and terrifying to behold.

But, as TSW points out, perhaps Smaug had relatively large wings and flew more like a buzzard or condor (primarily soaring and using an occasional vertical wing stroke to recover altitude and velocity). If so, he might need to use a high altitude (i.e. Lonely Mountain) launching site and thermal updrafts to take flight.

So perhaps Smaug did not land in Lake Town because he knew he would not be able to take off again from that low altitude situation, and without a bridge would be trapped unless he could swim (which is unknown).

Is the first part about the wings a joke? It is just that I cannot see how there can be common knowledge about a fable-animal, the descirption of dragons are very different depending on what part of the world you are in and in some places there are no "given" form that the dragon has.

About Smaug needing thermal updrafts: It is a possibility, but would that not limit is mobility? It would be extremely difficult for him to fly away from whatever mountain range he was living by, just like you never see the big vultures of South America very far from the mountains.

[Galendor]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Is the first part about the wings a joke? It is just that I cannot see how there can be common knowledge about a fable-animal, the descirption of dragons are very different depending on what part of the world you are in and in some places there are no "given" form that the dragon has.

About Smaug needing thermal updrafts: It is a possibility, but would that not limit is mobility? It would be extremely difficult for him to fly away from whatever mountain range he was living by, just like you never see the big vultures of South America very far from the mountains.

Not a joke, given their relatively small wings, dragons must fly like a hummingbird or bumblebee does, with a high-speed rotary wingstroke. Also they have hollow bones for lightness, and very long, sticky tongues for fishing dwarves out of deep holes in the ground. Dragons like Smaug also exude a thick, sticky mucilage from their undersides that allows jewels and other treasure to stick permanently to them. The spot over their heart is mucilage-free, for reasons unknown.

But alas, some dragons are born too fat or become so with age, and must exist as winged but flightless animals, like penguins. Smaug could still fly, but probably not for very long (glycogen depletion would get him in the end, just like it should have poor Gimli). So he wanted the bridge intact so he could waddle into Laketown on his legs and really have his way with the place in a nice slow fashion.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Galendor

Everyone knows that most if not all dragons have relatively small wings considering their body size, and therefore use a rotary, high-speed and constant wingstroke like a hummingbird or bumblebee to fly. This creates a flying/fighting style that is both humorous and terrifying to behold.
.

'Twas funny at that. Now I have a vivid mental image of a rather fat Smaug with tiny wings buzzing like a bumblebee over the heads of terrified but somewhat giggling villagers

[Sauron the White]

from skip spence

And please StW, don't ask me to explain how they managed to do so. I do not know how they did it, no one here knows. JRRT perhaps had a good idea in his head of how this was done, perhaps he didn't. All we know is what he wrote, and in The Hobbit the bridges of Lake Town were "cut" before Smaug could get there.

Well in truth Skip, we have a great deal more than "all we know is what he wrote". JRRT also gave us visuals of his world. In the case of Laketown, the picture that he himself drew clearly shows a rather substantial bridge with many thick pylons supporting it. It is clearly not a suspension bridge or something with ropes holding it up so that it can be quickly "cut".

That same drawing also evidences wide docks that are built along the same lines of the rest of the town. If Smaug wanted to land, and there is no evidence in the text or in drawings that was his intention, he had ample space to do so on the wide docks surrounding Laketown. But he decided not to.

So we do have much more than just what he wrote.