What connection between Goldberry and Ulmo?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good, Morthoron, good, but allow me please one remark - what you wrote applies a lot to Tom, but not to Goldberry. Despite the fact they are put together as a couple, Goldberry does not seem otherworldly (quite the opposite - she is descended from "river", an existing creation!), says nothing in the sense that "she is" or that she'd be "oldest", and I think (though I am just guessing, I am not that acquainted with the Letters) Tolkien did not mention her as a problem in the Letters. All you said applies only to Tom. But ultimately, that says nothing about Goldberry!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Good, Morthoron, good, but allow me please one remark - what you wrote applies a lot to Tom, but not to Goldberry. Despite the fact they are put together as a couple, Goldberry does not seem otherworldly (quite the opposite - she is descended from "river", an existing creation!), says nothing in the sense that "she is" or that she'd be "oldest", and I think (though I am just guessing, I am not that acquainted with the Letters) Tolkien did not mention her as a problem in the Letters. All you said applies only to Tom. But ultimately, that says nothing about Goldberry!

Not wishing to demean Lady Goldberry nor lessen her status, but if you are speaking in context of her creation, then you must look elsewhere than Lord of the Rings -- to a 1934 poem regarding Bombadil; thus she is part and parcel of the Bombadil story, an adjunct character that was not contrived organically by Tolkien for LotR. Therefore, I would include her in the Tom Bombadil Enigmatic & Utterly Unorthodox Journey.

I was not speaking in reference to Goldberry's original incarnation in the poem (which other posters have touched on here -- nymph, folkish water spirit, etc.), rather, her relationship strictly in context to LotR (or rather her uncontextuality). Interestingly enough, the name Goldberry could be taken to mean 'Flower Queen' in Sindarin (Golodh-bereth).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I tend to think that what Goldberry is (meaning, what she is in relation to her presentation in the published version of LotR) is much the same as Tom Bombadil, an enigmatic creation that seems rather a "holdover" from the time that Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as a "Hobbit sequel." Their general nature feels more akin to the world we see in TH than it does to the world we see in LotR.

Now, that said, I sometimes wonder if she isn't also a bit of a holdover from other ideas Tolkien had once entertained, then discarded. From what we see of some of his earlier versions of The Silmarillion in the HoME books, the Valar/Ainur we see in what we think of as TS aren't the same as what Tolkien had once conceived. At some point, they were more "classic mythology" rather than "angelic" in nature. Even after Tolkien started referring to the Powers as the Valar rather than "the gods," he conceived of the Maiar as the Valarindi, the Children of the Valar; early versions of Eonwe and Ilmare (called, I believe Fionwe and Erinti) were the offspring of Manwe and Varda. I'm not saying that Goldberry (and possibly Tom) was ever another child of the Valar in Tolkien's mind, since no evidence of this exists, but in pure speculation, a character who appears to be more than human, referred to as the "River-daughter" could have (at some time in the evolution of Tolkien's created world) been indeed the daughter of a greater power, like Ulmo, or perhaps even Uinen (after all, if the Valar could reproduce, why would their children not also have this capacity?). Given the scope of what Tolkien was creating, I can well imagine that there were many, many more possibilities he devised, then discarded; and I think that it's possible that some aspects of these myriad variations might have crept into the final work -- some intentionally, others not so, just bits of that bigger tapestry he liked for some reason and didn't want to wholly abandon (rather like Tom himself, I suspect).

Just muddying the waters (so to speak)...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Not wishing to demean Lady Goldberry nor lessen her status, but if you are speaking in context of her creation, then you must look elsewhere than Lord of the Rings -- to a 1934 poem regarding Bombadil; thus she is part and parcel of the Bombadil story, an adjunct character that was not contrived organically by Tolkien for LotR. Therefore, I would include her in the Tom Bombadil Enigmatic & Utterly Unorthodox Journey.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I tend to think that what Goldberry is (meaning, what she is in relation to her presentation in the published version of LotR) is much the same as Tom Bombadil, an enigmatic creation that seems rather a "holdover" from the time that Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as a "Hobbit sequel." Their general nature feels more akin to the world we see in TH than it does to the world we see in LotR.

There are several views in which we can look at the topic. We can look at what Goldberry was supposed to represent in Tolkien's universe, even at different stages (as Ibri mentioned), whether she is anachronic in LotR or not, whether she is even consistent with the world etc.
What I am asking, is what would we say from the "in-world" point of view, i.e. if you were omniscient inhabitant of M-E who makes classifications of all people and creatures of Arda, what would you say about Goldberry? You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".

I cannot say? She was not part of Bombadil's story? Tom found her in the 3rd Age? She was a "River-daughter" and we are to answer what that is? We have to say she is a Maia? *boggles*

Okay, I'll play this game.

If I were omniscient, then Balrogs did have wings, Orcs were derived from Men and not Elves, Hobbits have lunch (right after elevensies), and Tom and Goldberry were spirits of the Old Oxfordshire countryside (hence no ill effects from being in proximity or having direct contact with the One Ring, because they had no contextual connection with Middle-earth). But there is an excellent essay on Bombadil and Goldberry wherein the author, Gene Hargrove, puts forth the proposition that Goldberry is indeed Yavanna and Tom is Aule. It can be found here...

http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

I don't necessarily agree with his assumptions, but the essay is well-researched and thought provoking.

Originally Posted by davem

Or even a corruption of 'gold-bearer' which would be a nice kenning for a forest-river with fallen autumn leaves being carried upon its surface.

A very mellifluous description, davem, and quite an appropriate allusion for the Withywindle.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I cannot say? She was not part of Bombadil's story? Tom found her in the 3rd Age? She was a "River-daughter" and we are to answer what that is? We have to say she is a Maia? *boggles*

Morthoron, don't be silly! I am not saying that you have to try to present it from the in-ME point of view. If you want to look at it in one of the other views, why not? I was merely explaining from which view I am trying to look at it, and therefore, what my posts refer to.

This far, it seems the most probable to me what I said above: That she is of the creation (river-daughter) - i.e. she is "daughter" of something which is already by itself a creation - unlike Tom, who is "Oldest" and "Fatherless" (! compare). Now, Ainur don't have any offspring in the published version of the mythology - or do they? (Melian...) Is is possible that Goldberry is a Melian-like character herself (joining old Tom instead of Thingol), or that she is already a descendant of such character? Quite possible. Or, is she really something that "came out of the river" by itself? (And is such a thing likely in Tolkien's world?)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tom is Aule.

IF he was a Vala, I would say he was much more like Orome

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for all the responses! Sorry I haven't the time to comment on them in detail, but I am enjoying your thoughts.

Morthoron, as the initiator of this discussion, I have no objection to either point of view - from "inside" the story or from "outside". However, mixing the two could be problematic; trying to argue from outside about suggestions from inside doesn't work, and vice versa.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

. Interestingly enough, the name Goldberry could be taken to mean 'Flower Queen' in Sindarin (Golodh-bereth).

Or even a corruption of 'gold-bearer' which would be a nice kenning for a forest-river with fallen autumn leaves being carried upon its surface.