How many in Battle of 5 Armies?

[skip spence]

I just browsed this episope in The Hobbit and found another mention of numbers. Now my copy is in Swedish, but I assume the translator hasn't taken the freedom to invent a number. If someone's up to digging out the proper quotes I'd appreciate it.

It is told that Elven archers first let arrows rain over the Ork host and that a thousand spearmen charged in afterwards. These spearmen are presumably only a part of Thranduils army. It is also told that the elves' spears and swords shone in the evening sun, indicating that not all Elven melee fighters used spears as their primary weapon, further supporting the theory that the thousand spearmen were not the entire elven army.

So I think my assumtion that Thranduil brougth several thousand elves out of Mirkwood holds out fairly well.

Also, would Thranduil feel comfortable that their superiour numbers would be enough if the Dwarves of Dain had only slightly fewer warriors then he did? I think not. These dwarves were veterans of the Ork wars with superiour equipment and strength compared to the rustic and frail woodland elves. Out in in the open Thranduild would not have been so cocky had his men not had a great numerical advantage.

As for the men of Lake Town it is hard to say. I'd definitely say fewer than a thousand, if not only a few hundred.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by skip spence

It is told that Elven archers first let arrows rain over the Ork host and that a thousand spearmen charged in afterwards. These spearmen are presumable inly a part of Thranduils army. It is also told that the elven spears and swords shone in the evening sun, indicating that not all Elven melee fighters used spears as their primary weapon, further supporting the theory that the thousand spearmen were not the entire elven army.

So I think my assumtion that the Thranduil brougth several thousand elves out of Grenwood holds out fairly well.

That's a good point. It sounds like 1000 would actually be a low estimate.

[Groin Redbeard]

It looks like either way we go I was wrong.

I've been looking up some pictures of Laketown and I've come across a painting from Alan Lee that would suggest that Laketown was like the city of Venice in our world. I've also been looking at some pictures of the battle and there seems to be no shortage of men fighting. Therefore I believe that Laketown was larger than we think and that Bard's men were about as numerable as the dwarve's force.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

These dwarves were veterans of the Ork wars with superiour equipment and strength compared to the rustic and frail woodland elves. Out in in the open Thranduild would not have been so cocky had his men not had a great numerical advantage.

Please supply a reference to the Elves of Mirkwood being frail. These same Elves followed Oropher and Thranduil into the War of the Last Alliance, and then later fought along with Celeborn's Lothlorien forces in the War of the Ring. By Tolkien's description, they seem well-equipped and fierce at the Battle of Five Armies. I would say the Dwarves were at a definite disadvantage in the open, and there are references to the fact they are much more dangerous in the close environment of their subterranean realms (where the bulk of the Dwarf and Orc War was fought).

[Gwathagor]

The dwarves would absolutely be at a disadvantage in the open 1) because there were fewer of them and so could be surrounded and 2) because the elves had archers. Darn good ones, too.

Legolas is described by Tolkien as being and tall and strong as a young tree, able to string a Great Bow of Lorien with ease. That hardly sounds "frail and rustic." I mean...rustic maybe (Thranduil did wear a crown of forest flora) but frail, not at all. If anything, their forest life would have made them tough and resilient.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Legolas is described by Tolkien as being and tall and strong as a young tree, able to string a Great Bow of Lorien with ease. That hardly sounds "frail and rustic." I mean...rustic maybe (Thranduil did wear a crown of forest flora) but frail, not at all. If anything, their forest life would have made them tough and resilient.

To be fair, Legolas is not just any Mirkwood elf. In fact, he doesn't even belong to the Silvan people as he is the son of Thranduil, a Sindarin elf who can trace his ancestory back to Doriath(?) and probably with a somewhat noble family tree at that. Why else would he be king?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I do not belive that the Elves of Mirkwood was frail in any way, but to say that the forrest life made them "tough and resilient" is probably too much.

In many ways the life of the Mirkwood Elves seemed decadent, but that does not mean that they are poor fighters.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Please supply a reference to the Elves of Mirkwood being frail. These same Elves followed Oropher and Thranduil into the War of the Last Alliance, and then later fought along with Celeborn's Lothlorien forces in the War of the Ring. By Tolkien's description, they seem well-equipped and fierce at the Battle of Five Armies. I would say the Dwarves were at a definite disadvantage in the open, and there are references to the fact they are much more dangerous in the close environment of their subterranean realms (where the bulk of the Dwarf and Orc War was fought).

Well...

Just as the Dwarves were at a disadvantage underground, the Elves were at a disadvantage out of the forest. I doubt the Elves had the metal of the dwarves to protect themselves at a common soldier level, and their bows, however strong, would not I think be an armour piercing variety, but rather designed to kill "soft" objects like the spiders and beasts of Dol Guldur.

The men themselves had lived on a raft town and had not traded with dwarves for years, so no metal or cavalry for them either.

Thus the mixed army of men and elves was essentially an archer army, perhaps only double the size of Dain's. They were poor at hand to hand combat, yet forced to stay by the gate of the mountain for fear of a breakthrough. They were fraught with indecision over whether or not to fight; by comparison we know Dwarves are not famed for peacemaking when a liegelord and pile of jewels is in danger.

What I believe would have happened at the supposed battle between the Dwarves and the allies: Dain charges through in a direct path to either the gate or the two leaders' camps. The men and elves are either taken by surprise, or are ready to stand and fight, and are slaughtered (sadly) by metal weaponry and armour. Dain either cuts his way to the gate before the Men and Elves can regroup, or kills either King and their forces flee. The End.

Examples of this happening in history:

Age of Alexander - Alexander crushes Darius' light archer-based armies with a strong corps of heavy infantrymen at Issus and Gaugamela.

Roman period - Often outnumbered, Roman legions win consistently against larger but lighter forces of barbarians.

Dark Ages - This is the period of myths which Tolkien bases his legendarium upon. Tough men (Vikings) with axes, armour and shields are superior to other opponents. Which side does this description remind you of?

Middle Ages - The heavy knight is king, save for the armour piercing crossbow, which neither side in the Battle for Erebor possessed.

I'm open to other viewpoints...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Well...

Just as the Dwarves were at a disadvantage underground, the Elves were at a disadvantage out of the forest. I doubt the Elves had the metal of the dwarves to protect themselves at a common soldier level, and their bows, however strong, would not I think be an armour piercing variety, but rather designed to kill "soft" objects like the spiders and beasts of Dol Guldur.

The men themselves had lived on a raft town and had not traded with dwarves for years, so no metal or cavalry for them either.

Thus the mixed army of men and elves was essentially an archer army, perhaps only double the size of Dain's. They were poor at hand to hand combat, yet forced to stay by the gate of the mountain for fear of a breakthrough. They were fraught with indecision over whether or not to fight; by comparison we know Dwarves are not famed for peacemaking when a liegelord and pile of jewels is in danger.

What I believe would have happened at the supposed battle between the Dwarves and the allies: Dain charges through in a direct path to either the gate or the two leaders' camps. The men and elves are either taken by surprise, or are ready to stand and fight, and are slaughtered (sadly) by metal weaponry and armour. Dain either cuts his way to the gate before the Men and Elves can regroup, or kills either King and their forces flee. The End.

Examples of this happening in history:

Age of Alexander - Alexander crushes Darius' light archer-based armies with a strong corps of heavy infantrymen at Issus and Gaugamela.

Roman period - Often outnumbered, Roman legions win consistently against larger but lighter forces of barbarians.

Dark Ages - This is the period of myths which Tolkien bases his legendarium upon. Tough men (Vikings) with axes, armour and shields are superior to other opponents. Which side does this description remind you of?

Middle Ages - The heavy knight is king, save for the armour piercing crossbow, which neither side in the Battle for Erebor possessed.

I'm open to other viewpoints...

One last historical example:

Agincourt - Henry V's small English force armed with longbows (not crossbows) and pikes devastates Charles the Good's much larger army of infantrymen and heavy knights.

There are a few key similarities with the Battle of 5 Armies: the elves use weapons similar to those use by the English, and the dwarves are heavily armored, like the French knights. However, there are several important differences as well. The elven host was at least twice as large as Dain's army, and the dwarves had no horses, which only further emphasized their natural lack of height, speed, and reach.

The dwarves, while heavily armored, would have been slow to actually reach the elven army, during which time the elven bows would have wreaked havoc. Hand-to-hand, the elves' long spears would cause problems for the height and reach impaired dwarves. Once, however, the dwarves broke through that first line of spears and managed to get up close, the elves doubtless would have incurred a lot of casualties. In the end, though, I think the elves' superior numbers and superb archers would have tipped the blance in their favor.

The strange terrain would not have worked in favor of either army, as both were out of their element and therefore both at a disadvantage. The elves were used to forest and the dwarves to caves.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

The strange terrain would not have worked in favor of either army, as both were out of their element and therefore both at a disadvantage. The elves were used to forest and the dwarves to caves.

I think that just about sums it up. They would have both had many casualties due to unfamiliarity of the terrain.

[Groin Redbeard]

Great idea's guys, I really like the way that this discussion is turning out.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

The dwarves, while heavily armored, would have been slow to actually reach the elven army, during which time the elven bows would have wreaked havoc. Hand-to-hand, the elves' long spears would cause problems for the height and reach impaired dwarves.

I don't think that the dwarves would have any trouble in reaching the elven army. Elf arrows would be a problem, but the spearmen wouldn't pose much of a threat to the dwarf axes. The dwarf's stature would be an advantage, since they are so small they can adapt to tight fighting places, giving them more room to fight than a Man. Once the dwarves got into a melee with the elves they would hack them apart, I don't know about you but I think that dwarves excel in close quarter fighting. Also, I don't imagine the wood elves as being heavily armored; after all, Legolas wore almost no armor when he was with the fellowship.

The woodland elves, I imagine, would have almost no armor on them when they fight, since they kill their enemies by ambushing them from trees. Is it possible however that the dwarves had archers with them? We know that Thorin handled a bow, and would it be possible that they had some in Dain’s army? After all, how did dwarves get their food? Certainly not by beating a deer to death with their axes. If they elves gave them any trouble with their arrows, I’m certain that the dwarves could get close enough and keep the elves occupied.

One more interesting point that I'd like to bring up. We know that the Laketown men and the woodland elves outnumbered the dwarves, but is it possible that the dwarves might have brought along some of their war machines?

[Gwathagor]

All things being equal, if the battle consisted only of hand-to-hand combat between the elves and the dwarves, the dwarves would undoubtedly win. However, I think the key advantage of crack-shot archers would give the elves the upper hand because of the long, open distance the dwarves would have to cover before reaching the elven army. The casualties inflicted by the elven archers upon the slow dwarves would only exaggerate the already existing differences in numbers between the two armies. In the ensuing hand-to-hand combat, I'm sure the dwarves would inflict very heavy casualties, but at that point the elves would be able to overwhelm the dwarves simply by virtue of having, by that point, more than twice as many soldiers as the dwarves. The dwarves would be surrounded and then overrun.

I emphasize again that the elves would doubtless incur very heavy casualties during the close combat phase.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Please supply a reference to the Elves of Mirkwood being frail. These same Elves followed Oropher and Thranduil into the War of the Last Alliance, and then later fought along with Celeborn's Lothlorien forces in the War of the Ring. By Tolkien's description, they seem well-equipped and fierce at the Battle of Five Armies. I would say the Dwarves were at a definite disadvantage in the open, and there are references to the fact they are much more dangerous in the close environment of their subterranean realms (where the bulk of the Dwarf and Orc War was fought).

I didn't take the word frail from any of Tolkien's writings and it's merit here is debatable. Maybe they weren't particularly frail, no. Compared to the dwarves however I think they were at a disadvantage man-to-man. It is true that the Greenwood elves fought in the last alliance and they were said to be brave and fierce in battle. But they were also said to be poorly equipped, especially in armoury, and rather ill-disiplined at that. I believe most of their warriors perished in that war, and that this could have been avoidable had they known more about war and arrived better prepared.

In contrast the dwarves were considered toughest in battle of all the speaking people, and unrivalled in the crafting of metals. Perhaps the Noldor of old could give them a match but Thranduil's lot were not even close to their level in physical prowess and craftmanship. But like I said earlier, Thranduil's attitude suggests their numerical advantage would have brought them victory despite all of this.
And yes, Thranduil does state that the dwarves made a tactical mistake at the beginnig of the battle due to their inexperience with this terrain.