Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I'm not sure if this has been asked, and if it has, I'll check back the the thread, but Brian, did you listen to BBC version of The Hobbit that was done I believe in 1968 before beginning work on the LOTR adaptation? Just wondering if that played a part in helping you to determine what would and would not work in your own adaptation.

Yes, I knew the BBC dramatisation of The Hobbit which featured good actors and was directed by one of the BBC's best directors, John Powell, with whom I worked on other programmes. But I never liked it: I found it too fanciful, too fussy and heavily cumbered with too many intrusive sound-effects. We asked if we could make a new version of The Hobbit to precede TLOTR, but the powers-that-be wouldn't approve that idea - way too expensive - so it never happened. However, I think it certainly influenced Michael and I in writing the scripts and Jane Morgan and Penny Leicester in establishing a directing style - on the basis of knowing what we didn't want to do!

[davem]

I suppose the thing that stands out for me in this episode is the portrayal of Faramir. I don't know whether the adaptors went through the same kind of trauma the movie makers did (apparently) over how to make him 'believable', but you have to admire their skill in doing so - as opposed to the 'struggles' the movie writers apparently went through. Andrew Seear gets across the complexity of Tolkien's character (once again, I don't know whether he was familiar with the book beforehand) simply by using Tolkien's dialogue. I found this Faramir far more believable than movie Faramir. This is clearly a man who is prepared to sacrifice himself for what he believes in, but not to sacrifice his ideals - because he actually has ideals, rather than being a bit of a beardy-wierdy with a daddy complex..... anyway... You can certainly see how such a man could inspire loyalty in his troops. He's wise. He knows that in order to have any chance of victory over the Enemy one has to reject all the methods of the Enemy. As has been pointed up already, Ian Holm's performance as Frodo is spot on - his self-sacrificial journey (both inner & outer) to his own death, increasingly focussed on his goal to the exclusion of all else, doing what he knows is the morally right thing, while accepting that he himself will not get anything out of doing it, is heartbreaking - to the point that it is difficult to listen to his performance. William Nighy's Sam, clearly struggling to know how to cope with the dawning realisation of what's happening to his master, & Woodthorpe's Gollum, fighting against his inner fragmentation, because on some level he realises that he must get to that state of one-pointed meditation on his Precious to the exclusion of all else if he is ever to get it back, both bring out elements of the characters which many readers miss.

And Peter Vaughn's Denethor (shades of Olivier's Richard III - or is that just me?). I love this portrayal - subtle, driven, power-hungry, snide, but we cannot help but feel his loss. He may, as Gandalf says, be using his grief as a cloak, but we never doubt that that grief is real. And, again, its nice to be spared the scenery chewing .....

Briefly to the Grey Company. Nice to have an Aragorn who is in command - he tellls the Dead what they're going to do, & they get right down to it. This is another example of how the limitations of the medium actually work in favour of the story - radio doesn't allow you to go in for Indiana Jones style action sequences, so you don't get them, & such sequences aren't in the spirit of Tolkien. And jumping back to the scene with Eowyn - they way her voice breaks slightly when she says "Neither have those others that go with thee. They go only because they would not be parted from thee - because they love thee." is perfect.

Finally, Merry's failure to recognise that Dernhelm is a bird - very difficult to do, I suppose (bit like the voice of the resurrected Gandalf in Fangorn) - as soon as you hear the actor speaking the surprise is ruined - as readers we don't know Dernhelm is Eowyn till the confrontation with the Witch King on Pelenor Fields. Here, we know as soon as 'he' says "You wish to go whither the Lord of the Mark goes. I see it in your face." But that's a problem you'd have in any dramatisation, & at least this one attempts it, unlike the movie, where they simply don't bother.

Appendix - a couple of things that occurred to me while listening, first, the Red Arrow. This is a traditional summons to war. I've mentioned a couple of examples of it in another thread:

King Audbjorn sent around an arrow of war as a signal to call men to arms throughout his kingdom & dispatched messengers to powerful men asking them to meet him. (Egil's Saga)

The king split up a war-arrow, which he sent off in all directions, and by that token a number of men was collected in all haste. (Hakon the Good's Saga)

but I've recently come across another example in Saxo Grammaticus' Danish History:

But if any man, from a contumacious spirit, were slack in fulfilling the orders of the king, he should be punished with exile. For, on all occasion of any sudden and urgent war, an arrow of wood, looking like iron, used to be passed on everywhere from man to man as a messenger.

So, clearly another example of Tolkien drawing on traditional lore to add historicity to his stories.

Oh, & while on the subject - 'Shield-maidens'. Saxo also has a good few examples:

Alfhild

Thus Alfhild was led to despise the young Dane; whereupon she exchanged woman's for man's attire, and, no longer the most modest of maidens, began the life of a warlike rover.

Enrolling in her service many maidens who were of the same mind, she happened to come to a spot where a band of rovers were lamenting the death of their captain, who had been lost in war; they made her their rover captain for her beauty, and she did deeds beyond the valour of woman.

Wisna:

a woman, filled with sternness, and a skilled warrior,

Rusla

At the same time the amazon Rusla, whose prowess in warfare exceeded the spirit of a woman, had many fights in Norway with her brother, Thrond, for the sovereignty. She could not endure that Omund rule over the Norwegians, and she had declared war against all the subjects of the Danes. Omund, when he heard of this, commissioned his most active men to suppress the rising. Rusla conquered them, and, waxing haughty on her triumph, was seized with overweening hopes, and bent her mind upon actually acquiring the sovereignty of Denmark. She began her attack on the region of Halland, but was met by Homod and Thode, whom the king had sent over. Beaten, she retreated to her fleet, of which only thirty ships managed to escape, the rest being taken by the enemy. Thrond encountered his sister as she was eluding the Danes, but was conquered by her and stripped of his entire army; he fled over the Dovrefjeld without a single companion. Thus she, who had first yielded before the Danes, soon overcame her brother, and turned her flight into a victory. When Omund heard of this, he went back to Norway with a great fleet, first sending Homod and Thole by a short and secret way to rouse the people of Tellemark against the rule of Rusla. The end was that she was driven out of her kingdom by the commons, fled to the isles for safety, and turned her back, without a blow, upon the Danes as they came up. The king pursued her hotly, caught up her fleet on the sea, and utterly destroyed it, the enemy suffered mightily, and he won a bloodless victory and splendid spoils. But Rusla escaped with a very few ships, and rowed ploughing the waves furiously; but, while she was avoiding the Danes, she met her brother and was killed.

& Ladgerda

Among them was Ladgerda, a skilled amazon, who, though a maiden, had the courage of a man, and fought in front among the bravest with her hair loose over her shoulders. All-marvelled at her matchless deeds, for her locks flying down her back betrayed that she was a woman....

Her second husband didn't fare so well

Ladgerda, who had a matchless spirit though a delicate frame, covered by her splendid bravery the inclination of the soldiers to waver. For she made a sally about, and flew round to the rear of the enemy, taking them unawares, and thus turned the panic of her friends into the camp of the enemy. At last the lines of HARALD became slack, and HARALD himself was routed with a great slaughter of his men. LADGERDA, when she had gone home after the battle, murdered her husband.... in the night with a spear-head, which she had hid in her gown. Then she usurped the whole of his name and sovereignty; for this most presumptuous dame thought it pleasanter to rule without her husband than to share the throne with him.

& this got me thinking - as the term 'Shieldmaiden' seems common in Rohan (both Eowyn & Eomer use it in this episode) could there have been others in the Rohirrim?

[ArathornJax]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

Yes, I knew the BBC dramatisation of The Hobbit which featured good actors and was directed by one of the BBC's best directors, John Powell, with whom I worked on other programmes. But I never liked it: I found it too fanciful, too fussy and heavily cumbered with too many intrusive sound-effects. We asked if we could make a new version of The Hobbit to precede TLOTR, but the powers-that-be wouldn't approve that idea - way too expensive - so it never happened. However, I think it certainly influenced Michael and I in writing the scripts and Jane Morgan and Penny Leicester in establishing a directing style - on the basis of knowing what we didn't want to do!

I would totally agree with you that it is too fussy and very cumbered with too many intrusive sound-effects. The trumpets that go off are annoying as is the sound of Bilbo putting on the rings. I would have LOVED to have heard an adaptation by your team of The Hobbit and I think the cost over time would have been made back and with profit, but sometimes in business decisions can be short term based.

I suspected that it may have shown you and your team what you did not want to do. Thanks for the response.

[davem]

I liked parts of the BBC Hobbit - the interaction between Bilbo & the Narrator (or 'Talebearer') & some of the comments by various characters - like Gandalf's at the end on Bilbo's memoirs ("He'll never get a publisher!").

Of course, this is an adaptation that Tolkien could have heard, but I'm not sure that he did - or what his reaction was. Can't remember it being mentioned in the letters ....

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I would have LOVED to have heard an adaptation by your team of The Hobbit and I think the cost over time would have been made back and with profit, but sometimes in business decisions can be short term based.

I suspected that it may have shown you and your team what you did not want to do. Thanks for the response.

It was probably a short-sighted decision, but no one knew that TLOTR would be the success that it was - only when it was a hit did they decided to issue The Hobbit on audio books as a companion piece - even though they were so different.

It is worth remembering that not everyone thinks so highly of our LOTR; for instance I recently stumbled on a review of the CD set by Amanda Craig in The Independent on Sunday, Dec 15, 2002:

I have often wondered why so many intelligent people loathe Lord of the Rings (BBC Radio Collection pounds 50, boxed set) with such passion. Had my first introduction to it been through the radio, then I too would despise it. Brian Sibley has updated his classic radio version, first broadcast in 1981. He should be forced to wear prosthetic feet in atonement for the ponderous mess he's made of both story and prose. There's scarcely a single line here that belongs to Tolkien. All the humour, tension, poetry and life have been jettisoned for plonking dialogue that sounds like something left over from The Archers. Furthermore, one of the book's greatest pleasures, that of working out the mysterious past through the unfolding events of the present, has been bypassed by means of a new framing device, presumably to bring it in line with the film. The whole exercise is an embarrassment.

Of course Ms Craig is perfectly entitled not to like it, but "There's scarcely a single line here that belongs to Tolkien..." does beg the question of whether she has actually ever read the book!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've concentrated on the episode of The Hobbit with the Dwarven music in these past weeks, so I did listen to the BBC Hobbit radio play. I was not enthused over the version which was played and sung there - it lacked enchantment as far as I was concerned. Interestingly, the German radio adaptation has excellent Dwarven music, following the description in the book more faithfully and sounding much more fascinating. AJ, you mention another adaptation - can you give me more information on that, please?

[ArathornJax]

Estelyn here are some links:

http://www.sf-worlds.com/lord-of-the...-eye-1979.html

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The...116726/?itm=20

HighBridge is what Mindseye has become.

http://www.highbridgeaudio.com/jrrtolcol.html

I think I'd mentioned this, but there are many things I do not like about the Mindseye LOTR: the elves, the voices of Sam, Merry and Pippin, the writing, some of the acting. The BBC version is much more. For The Hobbit thought I do recommend the Mindseye or Highbridge version. Though not perfect, I do enjoy it.

Edit: I tried to put this into a private message but for some reason it is not working:

I also don't usually post something from YouTube but since this is only 3:28 of a 4 hour presentation and that is less than 10% I will post it as being ok under fair use.
This is a clip from the song the dwarves sing at Bilbo's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFcnMSJdnvA

[ArathornJax]

Transcript: http://www.tolkienradio.com/mastersamwise.html

Here are my thoughts on this episode. The interaction between Denethor, Gandalf and Faramir is well done. There are some major parts edited out, parts that I think really reflect not only the nature of the family relationships, but how they are different. Thought this is left out, I think the adaptation captures the notion of how it shows that Faramir is linked closer to Gandalf then to his father. I also like the discussion of what Denethor wished had been done with the ring. For me this is a wonderful interaction that shows Denethor's pride and vanity, that he could withstand the ring and would only use it IF it was a last choice. This reveals Denethor's hubris and how deceived he is. What was the deciding factor in putting the script together yet keeping it as true to the book as possible? Again, here I think that was done quite well.

One of the things I've noticed and again, I am not sure if it has been discussed, but I wonder how Brian and company decided on the order of events to display. I guess this episode really brought to me how the time frame of the book is not followed here. I would love to know how the decision was made to fit the various parts where they are in the adaptation.

The interaction between Frodo and the Witch King is interesting. I'm not sure if it could be done any better with the focus being on radio. It again conveys the meaning from the text while shortening the sequence. I really did miss the Phial of Galadrial that assisted Frodo in having the strength to resist the ring. For me this is important because it shows that Frodo needs the assistance of others in order to accomplish the quest. I still would like to see this brought out here in any adaptation because the Phial plays a role in what is coming, and this would show how it impacts evil when it confronts it.

Again we next see Aragorn and the army of the dead go forth to battle and take the Black Fleet over. I enjoyed the sequence here and that it shows Legolas hearing the cry of the gulls and the sea.

The highlight for me is the encounter with Shelob and the tower at Cirith Ungol. Sam and Frodo, Sir Ian Holm and William Nighy really do a great job here. I love the sound effect of Shelob, what sounds were used to make her? I also LOVE the song sung by Sam, In Western Lands . . . What tune is used there, anyone know? I also love how at the end Frodo/Sir Ian shows how the ring has corrupted him.

I really enjoyed this episode and have started the next.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

One of the things I've noticed and again, I am not sure if it has been discussed, but I wonder how Brian and company decided on the order of events to display. I guess this episode really brought to me how the time frame of the book is not followed here. I would love to know how the decision was made to fit the various parts where they are in the adaptation.

This may have been answered previously, I'm not sure...

Basically, I sat down with the book and Tolkien's date-by-date chronology ('The Tale of Years', LOTR Appendix B) and worked out a structure that was, as you note, different to that of the running narrative in the book.

This decision was dictated by two things: the need to be able to follow the story in, as far as possible, a chronological order and to be able to include material in each (originally 30-minute) episode featuring all the major character groups.

At that point I also took some decisions about cuts and omissions (the loss of Tom Bombadil being the biggest) and selected which story elements had to be included.

This structure was then followed by Michael Bakewell and myself when we came to write the actual episodes - though that process occasionally led to some unavoidable horse-trading so that material in over-long episodes could be accommodated elsewhere.

Further compressions and cuts were made in studio when the scripts had been read and accurately timed and more in the editing process following recording - necessitated by the fact that music and effects can add considerably to the running time.

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

The highlight for me is the encounter with Shelob and the tower at Cirith Ungol. Sam and Frodo, Sir Ian Holm and William Nighy really do a great job here. I love the sound effect of Shelob, what sounds were used to make her?

We wanted Shelob to sound real -- and female -- so the spider was 'played' by actress Jenny Lee, whose voice-sounds were then treated radiophonically.

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I also LOVE the song sung by Sam, In Western Lands . . . What tune is used there, anyone know?

Like all the music in LOTR, the tune was composed by Stephen Oliver.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

Of course Ms Craig is perfectly entitled not to like it, but "There's scarcely a single line here that belongs to Tolkien..." does beg the question of whether she has actually ever read the book!

I have to say I doubt it .... I am amazed continually as I compare the two for this how little dialogue has been created.

[Mithalwen]

Sorry to have neglected this. I will try to do the next one on Friday if none objects?

In the meantime, I must comment more on this one. While I have listened to the series many times it is usually as a background to either a long drive or housework but listening seriously has provided new insights into the text and a greated appreciation of the adaptation on the whole. It is something I have loved since I first heard it, oh so many years ago and it is a great joy to find that it stands up to scrutiny ( trying to reread the Chronicles of Narnia which I loved as a child was a heartbreaking mistake).

I love the way that the script doesn't feel the need to explain everything and that in the circumstances there are very few "clunks" ie characters saying things for the benefit of the listeners (proof again that using a narrator was a wise choice), the only ones that really struck me were Gimli asking about Isengard (surely he would know?) and Legolas telling Eomer that he could string a bow quicker than sight.. and this is a very minor quibble from repeated listenings. Given that this was originally scheduled to run over half a year it is amazing that there isn't a lot more recapping and captain obvious statements. Perhaps Radio 4 is one place that assumes an intelligent audience.

So we get Frodo and Sam speaking Elvish - no explanations - beyond the seeming influence of the star glass - with Sam in particular this is incredibly moving. The most ordinary of Tolkien's main characters, an ordinary working man who has picked up a little education by chance invokes Varda to watch over him in as he walks under the shadow of the horror of death. It is one of those moments that align the story to the greater mythology, which it could have been so easy to cut out, dismiss as incomprehensible but it gives that richness and complexity which makes it so much more satisfying than Hollywood's pandering to the lowest common denominator (intellectual snob? Moi?).

I too love "In Western Lands"... it has aquired a personal significance that means it usually moves me to tears. Oz Clarke's version is a fine rendition but what a performance from Bill Nighy!!!! It can't have been easy with so much of this episode being nearly a soliloquy and the range of emotion is huge. It is very different from the type of role he has more recently become famous for on film, and the singing.... well he really is Sam.

The juxtaposition of threads means that we have Denethor's failure of hope to contrast with Sam's determination to carry on.

As for the textual insights, examining this episode and cross referencing made me link, to my own satisfaction, the "seek for the sword that was broken" dream to Gandalf. Faramir the wizard's pupil had the dream first and more frequently than the less apt Boromir. Something I intend to examine more closely when I have time.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Sorry to have neglected this.
.

Me too. i still haven't listened to ep 10 yet - too many other distractions - well, one 7 month old 'distraction' actually. I intend to get around to eps 10/11 this weekend. My apologies to all as I started this project & then left everyone high & dry. If Mith is ok doing Ep 11 I'll try & do 12 - but I'm not promising.....

[Mithalwen]

Well part of me doesn't want it to finish! And Arathorn has other things to deal with alas. I will see what I can do... but the neglect isn't because of not caring rather caring so much that you want to give it more than the available time allows..