Sir Ian as Gandalf

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Its the singer not the song.

Or perhaps it is both the singer and the song...the greatest actor can't fix an abominable script.

I really enjoyed Weaving as Agent Smith and thought he was the consistent highlight of a trilogy that grew progressively worse the longer it got.

However, he just seemed perpetually grumpy as Elrond. I want more...subtlety and refinement and wisdom from the father of Arwen, the brother of Elros, the herald of Gil-galad, the greatest lore-master alive in Middle-earth. Regardless, I hope he comes back as Elrond in The Hobbit, for consistency's sake.

[Nogrod]

Consistency... yeah, that's the hard question...

I must say I enjoy the news of Sir Ian and Andy Serkis - not only for consistency but for pure performance. I loved the warmth & love in the eyes of Gandalf and the personality of Gollum in the LotR films and I know I would miss them in the Hobbit if they were not there.

With Hugo Weaving the question rekindles.

He was quite good as agent Smith I think but not as Elrond.

So is The Hobbit going to be a prequel to The Lord of the Rings-trilogy as a film? Or is it an independent film? Will it be just something to fill the visual & narrative ideas of PJ and Fran Walsh or is there room for el Toro to bring forwards his own vision?

We'll see... And darn I'm waiting to see it!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So is The Hobbit going to be a prequel to The Lord of the Rings-trilogy as a film? Or is it an independent film? Will it be just something to fill the visual & narrative ideas of PJ and Fran Walsh or is there room for el Toro to bring forwards his own vision?

We'll see... And darn I'm waiting to see it!

This is a very good point.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I hope he [Weaving] comes back as Elrond in The Hobbit, for consistency's sake.

I think this will provide us with a new question to discuss about elves, hobbits and maia: how much do they age and over what extent of time? Yes, yes, I know they are supposed to be ageless, but how to establish that with any degree of believability for the movie-going public who won't (one assumes) know all the Tolkien details.

How much younger should Bilbo appear?

Should Elrond and Galadriel (assuming she is in Part Deux) look even the tiniest bit younger? And Gandalf and Saruman--any fewer wrinkles? How will the makeup artists handle the natural aging of the actors who have played these characters?

For my part, I was always disappointed in the PJ trilogy that Galadriel, who is thousands of years older than Elrond, and is his mother in law to boot, looked so much younger than him. Didn't she get even one wrinkle, one grey hair worrying about her daughter?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think this will provide us with a new question to discuss about elves, hobbits and maia: how much do they age and over what extent of time? Yes, yes, I know they are supposed to be ageless, but how to establish that with any degree of believability for the movie-going public who won't (one assumes) know all the Tolkien details.

How much younger should Bilbo appear?

If they get Ian Holm to the part of Bilbo I'm quite happy to see him at any age imaginable... To be more honest I think Bilbo should not lok too much younger than he was in the LotR as it is said the ring kept him young.

Thinking of the timeframe between the Hobbit and the LotR and scaling it with the lifespan of the elves or maia it looks simple that the time passed between the two works will be insignificant to the ageing of the main characters.

For my part, I was always disappointed in the PJ trilogy that Galadriel, who is thousands of years older than Elrond, and is his mother in law to boot, looked so much younger than him. Didn't she get even one wrinkle, one grey hair worrying about her daughter?

Good point! And how was it possible she was married to that young "dough-face" as her one love?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If they get Ian Holm to the part of Bilbo I'm quite happy to see him at any age imaginable... To be more honest I think Bilbo should not lok too much younger than he was in the LotR as it is said the ring kept him young.

ABSOLUTELY.

[Sauron the White]

Ian Holm was utterly fantastic as Bilbo in each and every scene in LOTR save one. The one exception being the finding of the One Ring where he simply could not disguise his age. Ten years has past since that filming and those ten years are the most difficult for an actor. Plus Holm has had health problems. He would have to play a more physically demanding role and appear younger than he did in LOTR.

Face it - its just not in the cards.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Ian Holm was utterly fantastic as Bilbo in each and every scene in LOTR save one. The one exception being the finding of the One Ring where he simply could not disguise his age. Ten years has past since that filming and those ten years are the most difficult for an actor. Plus Holm has had health problems. He would have to play a more physically demanding role and appear younger than he did in LOTR.

Face it - its just not in the cards.

I agree, Ian Holm is a wonderful actor, but I fear he may have even looked a tad old for Bilbo in FotR, and that was ten years ago! Perhaps, like Gollum, they can make a completely CG animated likeness of a younger Bilbo using Ian's voice. Don't laugh! They made Ray Winstone's beer belly into a six pack for Beowulf!

P.S. Speaking of the Beowulf movie, did anyone else find the visuals disturbing? I couldn't even watch the waxen-faced caricatures after a while.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

P.S. Speaking of the Beowulf movie, did anyone else find the visuals disturbing? I couldn't even watch the waxen-faced caricatures after a while.

Oh man - that show was WILD. It only gets weirder the closer you get to the screen and I was sitting in the front row. Sometimes it even seemed like the action was happening behind me or beside me. I had a terrible headache afterwards.

The CG people were pretty eerie...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If they get Ian Holm to the part of Bilbo I'm quite happy to see him at any age imaginable... To be more honest I think Bilbo should not lok too much younger than he was in the LotR as it is said the ring kept him young.

Thinking of the timeframe between the Hobbit and the LotR and scaling it with the lifespan of the elves or maia it looks simple that the time passed between the two works will be insignificant to the ageing of the main characters.

Good point! And how was it possible she was married to that young "dough-face" as her one love?

It isn't the Hobit that is the problem though is it? Clearly you will need a younger Bilbo, Elrond is a cameo, and Gollum alas will be played by a computer. Where you have problems is with what ever they cobble together for this in between film. Surely Aragorn and Elrond will be a big part of that . Saruman and Galadriel for that matter...

... I am not sure that Viggo is the sort of actor who would want to go back. He has many other interests. And given the age he may have to be recast...

Weaving might not want to for a long haul either - or Cate Blanchett. The wonderful Christopher Lee is very hale for an octogenarian but ..... You may well need a younger Theoden and Denethor.... I can't help thinking of the Irishism "if I was going there I wouldn't start from here".

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

For my part, I was always disappointed in the PJ trilogy that Galadriel, who is thousands of years older than Elrond, and is his mother in law to boot, looked so much younger than him. Didn't she get even one wrinkle, one grey hair worrying about her daughter?

Sorry, but G. was ever a bit of a babe..

The chamber was filled with a soft light; its walls were green and silver and its roof of gold. Many Elves were seated there. On two chairs beneath the bole of the tree and canopied by a living bough there sat, side by side, Celeborn and Galadriel. They stood up to greet their guests, after the manner of Elves, even those who were accounted mighty kings. Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Sorry, but G. was ever a bit of a babe..

So the discrepancy lies with Tolkien who wanted a Brangelina for Lothlorien. (tsk. I shall be flailed for that. Legions of estimable Downers past shall suddenly appear and attack my audacity for criticising The Professor.)

Originally Posted by Many Meetings

The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.

Now this description captures the essential nature of the long lived elves so well, it seems to me. Tolkien is able to hint at Elrond's ages of experience while still presenting a character in full and hearty physical prowess. Not so with the Lothlorien Royal Couple. Does the difference hint at some defining distinction between Rivendell and Lothlorien, that one maintained links and associations outside its dwelling while the other cut itself off from outside communication? Galadriel tried the old Girdle trick.

Frankly, I find the description of Galadriel and Celeborn (poor consort, no wonder he is ridiculed if he is denied a manly expression of experience) really weird. Possibly Tolkien wanted something to appear off kilter for his perilous realm, but the state of Galadriel and Celeborn reminds me more of the effect of the Ring, something altogether unnatural. If you've read Wilde's The Picture of Dorien Grey, the Lord and Lady of Lothlorien are even ickier.

Maybe Tolkien just had trouble coming up with a second major description of elven immortality? 'cause elves start out as babies/kids and so they must show some kind of change over time.

So, to keep this on topic, I suppose CGI techniques can be used where 10 years of actors' aging must hidden.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Bb

Does the difference hint at some defining distinction between Rivendell and Lothlorien, that one maintained links and associations outside its dwelling while the other cut itself off from outside communication?

There's something there, I think. Don't forget that Elrond is half-elven too.

The problem with portraying Elves on film is that you have to find real human beings who can carry off ageless and unearthly beauty and still convey the weight of centuries of life experience. Or you could go CGI, I guess, but oy vey, what an expensive headache.

For me, the Elves are one of the more disappointing aspects of the films. Weaving is totally miscast as Elrond, IMO. Liv Tyler is too callow and angsty to really pull off Arwen. And words by the gross have been spilled about Orly, so I'll leave that alone. Cate Blanchett doesn't match up to G for me, but at least she's able to convey a sense of mature intelligence behind the beautiful face.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So the discrepancy lies with Tolkien who wanted a Brangelina for Lothlorien. (tsk. I shall be flailed for that. Legions of estimable Downers past shall suddenly appear and attack my audacity for criticising The Professor.).

I don't think the Prof. was quite as enamoured of the Eldar as some of his readers (& certainly not as much as the makers/viewers of the movies - hence his 'embalmers' comment. I suspect that Lorien would grow something of a Hotel California experience after a while. Perfect Elven bodies everywhere, & an increasing lack of meaningful conversation to be had - once you'd got tired of being told how great things were in the 'old days' & how things had just gone continually downhill since the First Age - or really since the death of the Trees.. (to quote Marvin the Paranoid Android from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: 'The first ten million years were the worst... & the second ten million years were the worst too....after that things just went down hill.'). Galadriel stated to Celebrimbor that she wanted to live in a land where the flowers & trees didn't die - a frozen, entirely plastic 'perfection'. The disconect between physical perfection & inner ennui, is by far the most interesting aspect of the Elves. They cannot grow old physically, & a reading of the Sil confirms that most of them are equally incapable of growing up.