What do you think of the Bakshi cartoon?

[Mithalwen]

It is so long ago .. I remember being terribly astonished that it just finished - I don't think any warning was given on the box! I remember that Galadriel was big eyed and a bit tarty. I had forgotten about "Aragorn where's your troosers?"

Lol...

[SteamChip]

Thank you Sauron the White I got me another piece:

—the orcs looked too garish,

And so
People who don’t like Bakshi’s work (critics) are upset:

1. --The artwork was not run through a 3d ray tracer
2 --The orcs are too garish and don’t accessorize well *
3. -–Bakshi’s gollum and how the critics imagined gollum are different
4. --Gandolf pointed out a few things too many times

*(covering the gripes about the unevenness of style, not necessarily comparing it to modern animation)

Although in the case of the orcs SPECIFICALLY (as opposed to a style castagory) he MIGHT have been doing it in purpose to make it look jarring and disturbing.

>>turning Boromir into a Viking and Aragorn into a Native-american tracker was way too much for my tastes<<

My apologizes --mustard and ketchup tend to dampen the nuances of flavor

That’s like-- Bakshi’s gollum and how the critics imagined gollum are different (characters don’t look the way you imagine they should look)

And / or Gandolf pointed out a few things too many times (characters don’t act or speak the way you imagine them to)

Battle scenes -- do we need more intestines, or less intestines?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by SteamChip

And so People who don’t like Bakshi’s work (critics) are upset:

1. --The artwork was not run through a 3d ray tracer
2 --The orcs are too garish and don’t accessorize well *
3. -–Bakshi’s gollum and how the critics imagined gollum are different
4. --Gandolf pointed out a few things too many times

*(covering the gripes about the unevenness of style, not necessarily comparing it to modern animation)

Although in the case of the orcs SPECIFICALLY (as opposed to a style castagory) he MIGHT have been doing it in purpose to make it look jarring and disturbing.

I am wondering why you have this incessant need to summarize a discussion regarding folks likes/dislikes about the Bakshi film. From what I can gather, you may well be an inveterate BAKSHI APOLOGIST (one of at least three or four on the internet) who does not take kindly to any negative mention of the film, referring to anyone who does so as 'critics' (critics) in parentheses. Do you have an opinion (critique) you wish to share with the forum (critics)? Or will you be offering further summaries as the discussion progresses (or digresses, as the case may be)?

Originally Posted by SteamChip

My apologizes --mustard and ketchup tend to dampen the nuances of flavor

Well, I've never been a catsup lover, but mustard (particularly with horseradish), judiciously applied to a corned beef or pastrami sandwich, can be revelatory.

Originally Posted by SteamChip

Battle scenes -- do we need more intestines, or less intestines?

Oh, more intestines certainly; particularly since beheadings have so proliferated in films nowadays that they are becoming passe.

[SteamChip]

Lets put it this way, If I had a little bit of cash, I would buy up the Bakshi film, knock off the last minute or so then finish it with another 90 minutes.

Of course Id have to revoice some of the dialogue, actors dying and so forth to have the new sound fit in with continuing characters with what went on before. But as far as the animation, characters, men without pants, barbie Gladreal, etc I’d keep it as faithful as possible to the original, warts and for continuity. It’s Lord of the Rings and no one else at the time was ambitious enough to take on that project.

Also, Rankin/Bass' at least TRIED to pick up the story with return of the King, it certainly is cartoon Bigfoot style change (as opposed to more realistic figure proportions), but more consistent quality and aimed at a younger audience but its Lord of the Rings. The part about them mixing it up at the crossroads in Mordor seemed more faithful to the book if I remember correctly.

The Hobbit, prelude to them all, also done in the Bigfoot style (done by the same Rankin/Bass' studio), so if one overlooks a few gaps, watching the Hobbit, Bakshis Lord of the Rings finally Return of the King , there is a start to finish animated story of the entire 4 book series.

Come to think of it, no need to finish, Rankin/Bass' already did, hmm spend my money on something else then.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by SteamChip

Lets put it this way, If I had a little bit of cash, I would buy up the Bakshi film, knock off the last minute or so then finish it with another 90 minutes.

A little bit of cash? Hmmm...well, the original Bakshi film cost $3 million to make ($6 million if you add in the John Boorman script that was eventually thrown out). In today's market, that's probaly closer to $20-30 million, given the need of heavy investment in technology (unless, of course, you find an animation studio with all the equipment at hand like Pixar or Disney -- which would not be a Tolkien choice). Add in the amount that Zaentz's Tolkien Enterprises would demand for licensing, and you've got a formidable amount to shake out of your piggy bank.

Originally Posted by SteamChip

Come to think of it, no need to finish, Rankin/Bass' already did, hmm spend my money on something else then.

In the kindest terms, that is a rather dubious legacy. I prefer Rankin-Bass' Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer (the one with stop-action puppetry) to the LotR debacle; after all, as everybody knows 'Bumbles bounce!'.

[Aaron]

The cartoon is terrible, Boromirr is portrayed as some sort of Viking and his death is robbed of any emotion. The live action sections are cringeworthy and seem like one long drug trip. Sam is robbed of any of his depth, you never once suspect that he has hidden reserves of courage and toughness.
And don't get me started on Saruman.
An abortion of an adaptation.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Aaron

The cartoon is terrible, Boromirr is portrayed as some sort of Viking and his death is robbed of any emotion. The live action sections are cringeworthy and seem like one long drug trip. Sam is robbed of any of his depth, you never once suspect that he has hidden reserves of courage and toughness.
And don't get me started on Saruman.
An abortion of an adaptation.

Now see, I think referring to Bakshi's film as 'an abortion' is perhaps a bit too strong of a description. Like I said in a previous post, it suffers from being dated, certainly, but I think it remains truer to Tolkien in many instances than does Jackson's interpretation, and to greater effect (as mentioned previously, Frodo defying the Nazgul at Bruinen Ford, the Nazgul in Bree, etc.). It has it plusses and minuses (perhaps much more to the negative than positive), but it was a valiant effort given the circumstances, and one should at least laud Bakshi for the attempt. Having seen the film upon first release, I can say with certainty (dimmed by age perhaps) that it was welcomed by those hungry for Tolkien material (just as the publication of The Silmarillion was a year prior), and more folks were upset that Bakshi never finished the sequel than were annoyed by his rotoscoping.

One could be a bit more harsher on Jackson, given his far greater budget and almost limitless access to technology. In fact, I consider Jackson's inane interpolations and ego-driven script maunderings to be far greater sins than anything Bakshi did.

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by SteamChip

Lets put it this way, If I had a little bit of cash, I would buy up the Bakshi film, knock off the last minute or so then finish it with another 90 minutes.

Of course Id have to revoice some of the dialogue, actors dying and so forth to have the new sound fit in with continuing characters with what went on before. But as far as the animation, characters, men without pants, barbie Gladreal, etc I’d keep it as faithful as possible to the original, warts and for continuity. It’s Lord of the Rings and no one else at the time was ambitious enough to take on that project.

Actually, I've given thought to something like this. Setting aside issues of copyright, etc., I wonder how hard it would be using modern computers and editing software to do what SteamChip suggests? In other words, it could almost be something someone does as a hobby in their spare time, rather than a huge dedicated project, requiring a massive investment in personnel, time, and resources.

For example, wouldn't some sort of graphics software allow one to correct such things as Aragorn's pantlessness, Saruman's weird robe, Boromir's horned helmet, etc.? Likewise, with sound editing, even using the existing dialogue, it ought to be possible to splice in or otherwise correct little things like "Aruman" or Boromir's pronunciation of MI-NUS Tirith.

Going beyond this, is it technically possible to take, say, simple film footage of individuals doing a scene, and use graphics software to overlay the animation characters over the actors? I ask because this would point the way to filming whole new scenes as SteamChip posted. One could recruit interested individuals from anywhere in the world to send in even camera phone footage to use as a basis for the animation.

Or even going well beyond this - rather than merely finishing the movie, one could add in missing scenes that fans have griped about for years, such as the Old Forest, Bombadil, and the Barrow Downs, among others. Remember that such would be an individual fan project, and need not be dumbed down to cater to the lowest denominator. The only stumbling blocks I foresee here are having to redo the voice acting throughout (for continuity), and any background music (though for the latter, were I in a particularly "pirate" mood, I'd go ahead and take anything whether from the original Bakshi movie, PJ's flicks, or even other music by, say, Enya, that would fit into the mood of the scene)

Now, I do not know if what I suggest is necessarily technically possible in the manner I outline above, and would need input from others far more knowledgeable about these things, but given the raw computing power that exists today (considering that what we currently have in a laptop vastly exceeds in power what NASA filled rooms with back when the Bakshi movie was released) coupled with the straightforward animation (as opposed to say Pixar style high end animation) it seems hard to believe that it couldn't be done...

Just a thought I've had for a number of years, now.