Is it possible: 1 Silmaril found: The Arkenstone - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eönwë · 05-09-2008, 04:58 PM

Macalaure, this is a good point, quite similar to what I thought before.

Also, if I remember correcctly, there were no gems before the Noldor, so the Arkenstone must have come from somewhere.

Macalaure · 05-10-2008, 05:13 AM

Whoops... didn't read the first post carefully enough.

Just ignore me.

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-11-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Also, if I remember correcctly, there were no gems before the Noldor, so the Arkenstone must have come from somewhere.

That was Tolkien's earlier idea, but helater changed his mind: the Noldor first found gems, but didn't invent them.

Morthoron · 05-12-2008, 06:05 AM

Then, there is the apocryphal statement that Feanor will unlock the Silmarils at the end of the world (after Tolkien's version of Ragnarok). Plus, I don't think there was enough time, geophysically speaking, for an errant gem to find its way from the edge of the Belegaer all the way to the heart of Erebor and embed itself in a crust of rock for the Dwarves to conveniently find and tinker with. Things like that don't occur in a 5 or 10 thousand year period. Unless of course it wanted to be found...mwahahaha.

Gwathagor · 05-12-2008, 09:53 PM

Well...one Silmaril did fall into the earth. Perhaps that was nearer to Erebor. Or was that one consumed by magma? But, even if it wasn't, I think it's a good point that there would not have been enough time for more crystal-junk to accumulate around the gem, which is necessary for the transformation into the Arkenstone. I rather doubt that anyone other than Feanor would have had the ability to alter a Silmaril, so without extra crystal formation around it, the dwarves probably wouldn't have been able to do any cutting or shaping - nor would they have wanted to.

ArathornJax · 05-13-2008, 08:25 PM

I don't see how the Arkenstone can be a Silmaril. First, the Silmarils were hallowed by Varda that no mortal hands or flesh unclean or evil could handle them but that they would be scorched. There are no exceptions here and dwarves are not like the Eldar, immortal, but only have an extended lifespan, and in the end, die as they are mortals.

Mandos said that they contained in them the fates of Arda, earth, sea and air were locked in them. And in the end, that is where they went into the earth, the sea and one placed in the air until after the final battle.

Based on this I believe that the Silmarils are found in the sky or air, in the depths of the earth and in the depths of the sea until the final battle. The Arkenstone is just what it is, a jewel that is beautiful and desirable but not a Silmaril.

What is interesting to me is the similarity between Feanor and Thorin. Feanor eventually begun to be greedy about the Silmarils, showing them only to his seven sons and his father, forgetting that the light within them was not his own. Thorin too, became very greedy with the Arkenstone, to the point of forgetting all the good Bilbo had done and wanting him dead. Why, because the Arkenstone was a Silmaril? No, but its beauty and power burned to his dwarven heart and his greed made him forget about the finer things in life. Unlike the Silmarils which drove the sons of Feanor to their deaths, the Arkenstone united the men of Dale/Longlake, the Elves of Mrikwood and the Dwarves of Erebor when Dain paid the debt for the Arkenstone and it was placed on Thorin in his tomb. Clearly for me, and others can dispute my belief and that is fine, IF the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, after defeating the Goblins and Wargs, the Elves, Men and Dwarves would have gone at it. That didn't happen (unlike the events at Doriath) and instead the Arkenstone is a great and wonderful jewel, an heirloom of Durin's folks and their kings, and it brought unity as Bilbo intended and nothing more. And for that matter, Bilbo did not scorch and wither after touching the Arkenstone several times (being mortal).

For me the Silmarils were not destined for this world to be seen until after the final battle . . . that is, unless Indiana Jones gets news of them and goes hunting them . . . then all bets are off.

Eönwë · 05-14-2008, 03:16 PM

But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal.

05-09-2008, 04:58 PM	#1
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	Macalaure, this is a good point, quite similar to what I thought before. Also, if I remember correcctly, there were no gems before the Noldor, so the Arkenstone must have come from somewhere. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place Last edited by Eönwë; 05-12-2008 at 04:34 PM.

05-12-2008, 06:05 AM	#4
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	Then, there is the apocryphal statement that Feanor will unlock the Silmarils at the end of the world (after Tolkien's version of Ragnarok). Plus, I don't think there was enough time, geophysically speaking, for an errant gem to find its way from the edge of the Belegaer all the way to the heart of Erebor and embed itself in a crust of rock for the Dwarves to conveniently find and tinker with. Things like that don't occur in a 5 or 10 thousand year period. Unless of course it wanted to be found...mwahahaha. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

05-12-2008, 09:53 PM	#5
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	Well...one Silmaril did fall into the earth. Perhaps that was nearer to Erebor. Or was that one consumed by magma? But, even if it wasn't, I think it's a good point that there would not have been enough time for more crystal-junk to accumulate around the gem, which is necessary for the transformation into the Arkenstone. I rather doubt that anyone other than Feanor would have had the ability to alter a Silmaril, so without extra crystal formation around it, the dwarves probably wouldn't have been able to do any cutting or shaping - nor would they have wanted to. __________________ Stories and songs.

05-13-2008, 08:25 PM	#6
ArathornJax Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Out West near a Big Salty Lake Posts: 76	My two bits or more I don't see how the Arkenstone can be a Silmaril. First, the Silmarils were hallowed by Varda that no mortal hands or flesh unclean or evil could handle them but that they would be scorched. There are no exceptions here and dwarves are not like the Eldar, immortal, but only have an extended lifespan, and in the end, die as they are mortals. Mandos said that they contained in them the fates of Arda, earth, sea and air were locked in them. And in the end, that is where they went into the earth, the sea and one placed in the air until after the final battle. Based on this I believe that the Silmarils are found in the sky or air, in the depths of the earth and in the depths of the sea until the final battle. The Arkenstone is just what it is, a jewel that is beautiful and desirable but not a Silmaril. What is interesting to me is the similarity between Feanor and Thorin. Feanor eventually begun to be greedy about the Silmarils, showing them only to his seven sons and his father, forgetting that the light within them was not his own. Thorin too, became very greedy with the Arkenstone, to the point of forgetting all the good Bilbo had done and wanting him dead. Why, because the Arkenstone was a Silmaril? No, but its beauty and power burned to his dwarven heart and his greed made him forget about the finer things in life. Unlike the Silmarils which drove the sons of Feanor to their deaths, the Arkenstone united the men of Dale/Longlake, the Elves of Mrikwood and the Dwarves of Erebor when Dain paid the debt for the Arkenstone and it was placed on Thorin in his tomb. Clearly for me, and others can dispute my belief and that is fine, IF the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, after defeating the Goblins and Wargs, the Elves, Men and Dwarves would have gone at it. That didn't happen (unlike the events at Doriath) and instead the Arkenstone is a great and wonderful jewel, an heirloom of Durin's folks and their kings, and it brought unity as Bilbo intended and nothing more. And for that matter, Bilbo did not scorch and wither after touching the Arkenstone several times (being mortal). For me the Silmarils were not destined for this world to be seen until after the final battle . . . that is, unless Indiana Jones gets news of them and goes hunting them . . . then all bets are off. __________________ "At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts." JRR Tolkien in 6 October 1940 letter to Michael Tolkien

05-14-2008, 03:16 PM	#7
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place

05-10-2008, 05:13 AM	#2
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Whoops... didn't read the first post carefully enough. Just ignore me.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode