What do you think of the Bakshi cartoon?

[SteamChip]

Lets put it this way, If I had a little bit of cash, I would buy up the Bakshi film, knock off the last minute or so then finish it with another 90 minutes.

Of course Id have to revoice some of the dialogue, actors dying and so forth to have the new sound fit in with continuing characters with what went on before. But as far as the animation, characters, men without pants, barbie Gladreal, etc I’d keep it as faithful as possible to the original, warts and for continuity. It’s Lord of the Rings and no one else at the time was ambitious enough to take on that project.

Also, Rankin/Bass' at least TRIED to pick up the story with return of the King, it certainly is cartoon Bigfoot style change (as opposed to more realistic figure proportions), but more consistent quality and aimed at a younger audience but its Lord of the Rings. The part about them mixing it up at the crossroads in Mordor seemed more faithful to the book if I remember correctly.

The Hobbit, prelude to them all, also done in the Bigfoot style (done by the same Rankin/Bass' studio), so if one overlooks a few gaps, watching the Hobbit, Bakshis Lord of the Rings finally Return of the King , there is a start to finish animated story of the entire 4 book series.

Come to think of it, no need to finish, Rankin/Bass' already did, hmm spend my money on something else then.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by SteamChip

Lets put it this way, If I had a little bit of cash, I would buy up the Bakshi film, knock off the last minute or so then finish it with another 90 minutes.

A little bit of cash? Hmmm...well, the original Bakshi film cost $3 million to make ($6 million if you add in the John Boorman script that was eventually thrown out). In today's market, that's probaly closer to $20-30 million, given the need of heavy investment in technology (unless, of course, you find an animation studio with all the equipment at hand like Pixar or Disney -- which would not be a Tolkien choice). Add in the amount that Zaentz's Tolkien Enterprises would demand for licensing, and you've got a formidable amount to shake out of your piggy bank.

Originally Posted by SteamChip

Come to think of it, no need to finish, Rankin/Bass' already did, hmm spend my money on something else then.

In the kindest terms, that is a rather dubious legacy. I prefer Rankin-Bass' Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer (the one with stop-action puppetry) to the LotR debacle; after all, as everybody knows 'Bumbles bounce!'.

[Aaron]

The cartoon is terrible, Boromirr is portrayed as some sort of Viking and his death is robbed of any emotion. The live action sections are cringeworthy and seem like one long drug trip. Sam is robbed of any of his depth, you never once suspect that he has hidden reserves of courage and toughness.
And don't get me started on Saruman.
An abortion of an adaptation.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Aaron

The cartoon is terrible, Boromirr is portrayed as some sort of Viking and his death is robbed of any emotion. The live action sections are cringeworthy and seem like one long drug trip. Sam is robbed of any of his depth, you never once suspect that he has hidden reserves of courage and toughness.
And don't get me started on Saruman.
An abortion of an adaptation.

Now see, I think referring to Bakshi's film as 'an abortion' is perhaps a bit too strong of a description. Like I said in a previous post, it suffers from being dated, certainly, but I think it remains truer to Tolkien in many instances than does Jackson's interpretation, and to greater effect (as mentioned previously, Frodo defying the Nazgul at Bruinen Ford, the Nazgul in Bree, etc.). It has it plusses and minuses (perhaps much more to the negative than positive), but it was a valiant effort given the circumstances, and one should at least laud Bakshi for the attempt. Having seen the film upon first release, I can say with certainty (dimmed by age perhaps) that it was welcomed by those hungry for Tolkien material (just as the publication of The Silmarillion was a year prior), and more folks were upset that Bakshi never finished the sequel than were annoyed by his rotoscoping.

One could be a bit more harsher on Jackson, given his far greater budget and almost limitless access to technology. In fact, I consider Jackson's inane interpolations and ego-driven script maunderings to be far greater sins than anything Bakshi did.

[Sauron the White]

I felt -- and do feel - quite the opposite.
It is interesting that the source material - LOTR - was the same but the reception of the two versions could not have been more different. Bakshi's film was a flop in so many ways inclduing artistically, box office return, critical acceptance, and was forgotten by industry awards. Jacksons adaption, as we all know, was a wild success in all those areas of measurement.

Its the singer - not the song.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I felt -- and do feel - quite the opposite.
It is interesting that the source material - LOTR - was the same but the reception of the two versions could not have been more different. Bakshi's film was a flop in so many ways inclduing artistically, box office return, critical acceptance, and was forgotten by industry awards. Jacksons adaption, as we all know, was a wild success in all those areas of measurement.

*shrugs*

Not to niggle, but you're letting your animosity color your representation of the facts:

It was a box office success according to many sources on the net, grossing $30.5 million in 1978 dollars, with a budget of only $3-4 million (a 100% profit is quite respectable, I'd say).

It was nominated for Hugo and Saturn awards (Saturns did not have a best animated film category until 2004, and the Hugo has never had one) as well as winning a Golden Griffon. As you may not be aware, full-length animated films rarely receive any Academy Award or other major film recognition (in 1991 Disney's Beauty and the Beast was the first animated film ever to receive an Oscar nomination for Best Film).

Critical review was mixed, not universally panned. Check your sources.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Its the singer - not the song.

Ah, but there is no tune if there are none to pay the piper. Bakshi managed to get a lot out of the tin whistle he could afford; who knows how he would have played had he been handed Jackson's Stradivarius.

Again, it's all a matter of opinion, I suppose. It was certainly not great, but it was not as abysmal as you make it out to be. Thus, I believe I have adequately defended mediocrity.

[Sauron the White]

I agree that Bakshi was handicapped by the budget he had to work with. That applies to almost every filmmaker inclduing Jackson who had to work within the constraints of a budget, although larger by comparison. My complaint is with how Bakshi spent his money. The film is a mismash of styles that are at times at odds with each other. He hired such artists as Mike Ploog - who did these enchanting light hearted classical Disney drawings - and then hired other artists who worked in a very fuzzy, almost impressionistic style. Then we have the weird negative images of the orcs which defy almost any identifiable style.

Pick a style - any style - and stick with it. Bakshi's LOTR was not FANTASIA with individual vignettes telling individual stories with individual styles and approaches. It was suppose to be one film and as such with one vision.

If Bakshi's film returned a 100% or better profit as you indicate, I wonder why the second half of that film was not given the greenlight? If those figures are true and accurate, I would have thought that the studio would gladly put up the funds to double or triple their investment yet again.

The HUGO and SATURN awards are not given by the professional film community. As such, they are not an expression of film excellence in the same sense that the Oscars and Bafta's are. I guess one could take the approach that an award is an award is an award. For my money, I put them in a far different - and lower - category.

[Elemmakil]

Originally Posted by SteamChip

Lets put it this way, If I had a little bit of cash, I would buy up the Bakshi film, knock off the last minute or so then finish it with another 90 minutes.

Of course Id have to revoice some of the dialogue, actors dying and so forth to have the new sound fit in with continuing characters with what went on before. But as far as the animation, characters, men without pants, barbie Gladreal, etc I’d keep it as faithful as possible to the original, warts and for continuity. It’s Lord of the Rings and no one else at the time was ambitious enough to take on that project.

Actually, I've given thought to something like this. Setting aside issues of copyright, etc., I wonder how hard it would be using modern computers and editing software to do what SteamChip suggests? In other words, it could almost be something someone does as a hobby in their spare time, rather than a huge dedicated project, requiring a massive investment in personnel, time, and resources.

For example, wouldn't some sort of graphics software allow one to correct such things as Aragorn's pantlessness, Saruman's weird robe, Boromir's horned helmet, etc.? Likewise, with sound editing, even using the existing dialogue, it ought to be possible to splice in or otherwise correct little things like "Aruman" or Boromir's pronunciation of MI-NUS Tirith.

Going beyond this, is it technically possible to take, say, simple film footage of individuals doing a scene, and use graphics software to overlay the animation characters over the actors? I ask because this would point the way to filming whole new scenes as SteamChip posted. One could recruit interested individuals from anywhere in the world to send in even camera phone footage to use as a basis for the animation.

Or even going well beyond this - rather than merely finishing the movie, one could add in missing scenes that fans have griped about for years, such as the Old Forest, Bombadil, and the Barrow Downs, among others. Remember that such would be an individual fan project, and need not be dumbed down to cater to the lowest denominator. The only stumbling blocks I foresee here are having to redo the voice acting throughout (for continuity), and any background music (though for the latter, were I in a particularly "pirate" mood, I'd go ahead and take anything whether from the original Bakshi movie, PJ's flicks, or even other music by, say, Enya, that would fit into the mood of the scene)

Now, I do not know if what I suggest is necessarily technically possible in the manner I outline above, and would need input from others far more knowledgeable about these things, but given the raw computing power that exists today (considering that what we currently have in a laptop vastly exceeds in power what NASA filled rooms with back when the Bakshi movie was released) coupled with the straightforward animation (as opposed to say Pixar style high end animation) it seems hard to believe that it couldn't be done...

Just a thought I've had for a number of years, now.