Dueling Wizards Werewolf II discussion thread

[Nogrod]

To address Lhuna's points (hail for the reading effort! )

Originally Posted by Lhuna

1. Just to clarify, either wizard cannot refuse a duel once the other challenges. Right? But they do have the choice not to challenge right away even if the identity of the other is already revealed to them.

Right on both cases. Also the duel can only take place during the Day. So no Night-duels for wizards.

2. Yes, I think it would be better if the player scried by both wizards is killed.

Agreed.

3. I agree that the GW should also be given three players to scry on Night 1. (And trust Mac to know his maths - the Night 1 scry list should indeed include more than 5 people.)

Yes indeed.

4. I go with the standard 3 wolves = 1 Night kill, and then maybe just add one kill for each added wolf? Would that sway the balance too much? If so then maybe there can be 2 Night kills for 4 to 6 wolves. I seriously hope we don't get more than 6 wolves at a time!

I'd say two kills with 4-6 wolves. What to do if the EW manages to scry her wolf-total to 7? Scrying four additional wolves without losing one would take four days in which time they would have in the best case killed 11 innocents. With 25 people playing that would mean the game was over (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 5 innocents) and even with 30 players it would look grim indeed (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 10 innocents). Maybe we should stick to two kills at Night the highest? Although it should be remembered that the EW will not be that efficient in practise and the scenario is a bit far-fetched.

5. 7 AM (my time) deadline should be good, that will give me the night to catch up. (Who needs to study, do homework, and sleep?)

What's your timezone? GMT+? The American players would like to make it as late as it could be pushed and to me my limit would be 2AM my time eg. 11PM GMT.

6. Sorry, I must be really dim, but when are wizards and minions allowed to communicate again?

All talk within the teams is done during the Night. The minions can send their messages to their wizard via the mod. It's up to the wizard whether she wishes to create a straight link between herself and one or more of her minions or whether she contacts them via the mod as well - or whether she allows some of her minions to know each other and thus enable them to PM together as well.

The question of possible sub-mods needs to be raised again though. I have a vacation and could be reading the thread quite actively so I might also be able to handle the traffic myself - at least for a few days. Roa offered to be a sub-mod and that offer is appreciated. But as she told me in her PM that she could also play I'd love to see her play more than to sub-mod the game...

Maybe I could try to persuade someone who drops out of the game early on to join forces with me submodding the game and do the modding alone the first Days / Nights before a submod emerges from the dropped players? That would sound the most sensible to me.

7. I still say no to retractable votes. Double lynches...hmm...is it not enough that there's a possibility that more than one person could be killed at Night? And we're not always wise with our lynch victims (understatement of the year). I'll go with no.

Retractable votes are fun but I think there are enough twists and turns in this game without them. So I'd say no as well. With double-lynches I'd like to hear more from you people. For it could be also argued that in a big village it would be good to have double-lynches.

10. The GW could be limited to the three Gifteds, and other scries can be Ranger protections (except if the EW also scries that person, of course) or de-wolfings. Once a Gifted is ungifted or killed, then the GW can regift...but until how many times? If the second Seer, for example, is also killed or ungifted, what then? Can the GW gift someone until he's dead?

This is a point to be decided. In relation to DW I we have already eased the GW's situation by allowing her to scry all three gifteds in the beginning. Also if we give the Evil-side less kills than in the last game I'd say we should not give the GW more than three gifteds at a time. The game needed some balancing but let's not "overbalance" it? I'll try to make some dry-runs to see how it goes with different rules...

11. I remember that the last game there were a couple of Seer dreams lost and the Hunter failed to make a choice because (I'm not sure if this goes for all those cases) they wanted to discuss their options with the GW but ran out of time. Is extending one phase an option? Or will they be allowed to converse Day and Night?

I'd say no to both. Making Days or Nights longer would easily lead to confusion and Daytime messaging might be a too powerful weapon to the GW (as it would seem the GW has more sense in sharing the knowledge of the roles with her minions).

12. I think there was a Hunter complication last game, and I'm not sure if that has already been addressed.

I think it has. For that was a hasty decision by lmp made under pressure. With the advance of a hindsight it is easy to say it was a wrong decision. And now we know it.

[Nogrod]

I made Roa the mother of Legate, Brinn and Kitanna as she said she could fit in anywhere needed. I hope you children have nothing against your mom. That's an offer or suggestion though. Feel free to bring forward other ideas.

Now where do we find a husband for Roa? morm? You'r chance for becoming the patriarch - with quite a strong matriarch by your side though...

[A Little Green]

Ummm... Do I miss something important if I don't read those horrendously long debates and speculations that I don't really understand anyway? I mean, is it sufficient if I just know the final set of rules when it comes out?

Oh, and great to see new people joining the game. This is starting to look really really good.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Ummm... Do I miss something important if I don't read those horrendously long debates and speculations that I don't really understand anyway? I mean, is it sufficient if I just know the final set of rules when it comes out?

I will be posting two different sets of rules to the actual game-thread in the end.

There will be the basic rules and then the hard-core rules. Anyone should be able to play with the basic-rules but the wizards - and possibly active & involved minions. That doesn't mean others shouldn't look at them to understand what happened in odd situations but that's everyone's own choice then.

[A Little Green]

That wasn't quite what I meant. I just asked whether it's okay if I don't read the rules discussion going on in this thread, because I don't have experience of the last DW game and don't quite know what you are talking about, and certainly don't have anything constructive to say. The actual rules, when you have decided on them, I will read and make sure to understand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

That wasn't quite what I meant. I just asked whether it's okay if I don't read the rules discussion going on in this thread, because I don't have experience of the last DW game and don't quite know what you are talking about, and certainly don't have anything constructive to say. The actual rules, when you have decided on them, I will read and make sure to understand.

I haven't read anything for a long time except this one post, and I would like to second it I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

It's hard to produce a summary of things that are unsettled...

But fear not. The rules will emerge from this discussion.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I haven't read anything for a long time except this one post, and I would like to second it I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

Can I third? I have no idea what's going on, none. But I'm sure it'll make sense once it's all in one convenient little post before the game starts, so I'm not too worried about it.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

To address Lhuna's points (hail for the reading effort!)

*curtsies*

I'd say two kills with 4-6 wolves. What to do if the EW manages to scry her wolf-total to 7? Scrying four additional wolves without losing one would take four days in which time they would have in the best case killed 11 innocents. With 25 people playing that would mean the game was over (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 5 innocents) and even with 30 players it would look grim indeed (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 10 innocents). Maybe we should stick to two kills at Night the highest? Although it should be remembered that the EW will not be that efficient in practise and the scenario is a bit far-fetched.

I agree with you and Agan. 2 Night kills, tops, should do.

What's your timezone? GMT+? The American players would like to make it as late as it could be pushed and to me my limit would be 2AM my time eg. 11PM GMT.

GMT +8 for me and Nilp. I'm not sure how a 7 AM deadline will sit with him, but I'm perfectly fine with it.

The question of possible sub-mods needs to be raised again though. I have a vacation and could be reading the thread quite actively so I might also be able to handle the traffic myself - at least for a few days. Roa offered to be a sub-mod and that offer is appreciated. But as she told me in her PM that she could also play I'd love to see her play more than to sub-mod the game...

I think that will be the case with practically anyone - we'd much rather see them play than mod.

Roa! Oooh. That's wonderful. Welcome back. And did I read right that Celuien's sure to be here?

Maybe I could try to persuade someone who drops out of the game early on to join forces with me submodding the game and do the modding alone the first Days / Nights before a submod emerges from the dropped players? That would sound the most sensible to me.

I think that's a good idea.

Retractable votes are fun but I think there are enough twists and turns in this game without them. So I'd say no as well. With double-lynches I'd like to hear more from you people. For it could be also argued that in a big village it would be good to have double-lynches.

Okay, maybe it could be put up to a vote. I'm still siding with no.

This is a point to be decided. In relation to DW I we have already eased the GW's situation by allowing her to scry all three gifteds in the beginning. Also if we give the Evil-side less kills than in the last game I'd say we should not give the GW more than three gifteds at a time. The game needed some balancing but let's not "overbalance" it? I'll try to make some dry-runs to see how it goes with different rules...

Oh, yes, of course. The ordos are still on the good side. Maybe each gift can be re-given only once, and then no more?

I'd say no to both. Making Days or Nights longer would easily lead to confusion and Daytime messaging might be a too powerful weapon to the GW (as it would seem the GW has more sense in sharing the knowledge of the roles with her minions).

Point taken. (Can you tell I (morally) want the Good Team to win so much? )

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

You forgot DST, daga. They have them, we don't. So we're GDT+7 now.

I shall be a house-bound sandwich-maker. (Aprons look better on me than on Lommy, who, I believe, is better suited to aquatic poultry-raising. ) Also, I say 'nay' to multiple lynchings, 'nay' to retractable votes. Retractable votes are a needless complication, and multiple lynchings make the game too mathematical, especially in a game where the Seer could be reactivated.

Up next, a cost-benefit analysis of Nogrod's Three Possibilities, after finishing my synthesis paper for translation class.

[Cailín]

I must agree with Nilp and others: no multiple lynching and no retractable votes. The game is complicated enough without them, and many people will die without giving the village that additional power.

Four wolves or more should allow for two kills a night, while more than six wolves should allow for three (surely we'll not let it get that far?).

I think that by allowing the GW to bless three gifteds from the beginning, you already fix a lot of the balance issues we had last time. The game may even be swayed too much in favour of the good side, so I think a limit on the amount of regiftings is a good idea. Will the Hunter be an ordinary Hunter, by the way?

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.

[Thinlómien]

I shall be a house-bound sandwich-maker. (Aprons look better on me than on Lommy, who, I believe, is better suited to aquatic poultry-raising.)

Great, Nilp, what a well earning man I've married.... I think I'll be just a bird-tamer in general. So, breeding and training birds, whether they're aquatic or not, although preferring a certain aquatic bird species... Sally (with her duck interest) can be my assistant, Kath may be her father's follower in the sandwich "business"...

Sorry, I can't say anything smart about the rules right now, will do that later...

[A Little Green]

Nilp, dear son-in-law, do you make smørrebrød as well?

Bird-taming sounds honourable enough. I wait to see what my son has chosen for profession...

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

You forgot DST, daga. They have them, we don't. So we're GDT+7 now.

Whoops. I never did get the hang of DST. Thanks, daga.

(To Mordor: ++Daylight Savings Time)

Originally Posted by Nilp

Retractable votes are a needless complication, and multiple lynchings make the game too mathematical, especially in a game where the Seer could be reactivated.

There's the reason I was looking for.

Originally Posted by Cailín

Four wolves or more should allow for two kills a night, while more than six wolves should allow for three (surely we'll not let it get that far?).

I was thinking about this too - maybe it would be added motivation to the innocents to track down the wolves before they became too many?

Originally Posted by Mummy Cailin

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.

Nogmod said communications are limited to Nights. Oh well...

[Nogrod]

Should we open a hard-core rule-thread so that no one gets frustrated with the need of ironing out the rules?

Celuien sent me a PM saying she will be playing. So that's true and confirmed. Great to see her for a long time!

Bad news is that Boro will only have one day/week time to play in the coming weeks and is forced to stay away from the game.

I'd say in this kind of game the hunter should be of the classical variety eg. posting a name of one person s/he is hunting and that one will die whether innocent or wolf. As the good team has the advance of sharing GW's and seer's pssible knowledge there must be this risk-factor included.

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.

I stil think 24hour cycle should be enough. If the deadline is 11PM GMT it will be pretty good for all the Europeans and Americans enabling them to check the PM's at various points during the Night - including just before and just after the deadline.

The late deadline might be a bit inconvenient for some Europeans (us Finns and possibly Legate) but that makes it possible for Lhuna and Nilp to be there at the deadline - and eases the situation of the Americans who have day-time occupations. So I think it's a good compromise.

I wouldn't set any internal deadlines to the communication during the Night from outside as they just tend to complicate matters and are hard to define as so much would depend on who the people involved are. The wizards themselves surely are free to impose deadlines to their minions if they see it fit. If the EW calls her wolves and says fex. "if you wish to make points on who to kill, please do it before 6PM GMT as I will not take later contributions into consideration"; or if the GW tells her gifteds that "all the suggestions as to your targets toNight should be with me at 8PM GMT the latest or I will decide it for you" then it's fine for me.

So it's also a question of the wizards telling their minions when they are able to receive information the last time before they send their decisions to me/submod. And in the end active minions can approach their master enough-many times a Night - and an active wizard may give the feedback as well many times a Night. So I wouldn't be too concerned about this question.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

And did I read right that Celuien's sure to be here?

'Tis absolutely correct! I couldn't stay away from the Dueling Wizards return... and it has been far too long since I've been in a game.

I'm looking for a family, if there's anyone who doesn't mind being related to a long-lost wandering child like me.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm looking for a family, if there's anyone who doesn't mind being related to a long-lost wandering child like me.

I would suggest that you would consider being the mother of Legate / Brinn / Kitanna -trio of 20+ children.

If Morm would be your husband we could start to build another big family there (I could be related to either of you then thus bringing Lalaith and Nerwen and their offspring into the same family as well).

Or how about taking the "young guys" Gwath & McCaber under your protective mummy's care? (sorry guys but that's just the impression that comes to my mind first from this particular game setting... - I mean "dudes" quarrelling over girlfriends and the stuff)

I still think we will (have to) get a few players in * so there might be other possibilities as well.

But just suggestions...

Any children in need of a mom?

* The official number of players is now 23. There are three people who have quite lately said they would like to join but have not posted to this particular thread (Valier, Azaelia, The Ka). I also hope to hear still from a few people I've sent an invitation to. But feel free to invite people in! 26-28 would be good (the last game had 30). But there's still about two weeks before we start so I'm quite confident we will have a good number of players.