What's up with Celeborn?

[Mithalwen]

Celeborn's history went through several versions so there may not be a definitve answer. Certainly I can't recall anything in any of them (though my readling of HoME has not been consistently thorough) that gives any reason that Celeborn should be forbidden to pass in to the West.

Hammond and Scull in the LOTR reader's companion refer to the abandoned Epilogue in which Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn still lives in Lorien and has not tired of his own land - when he does he can leave and points out that it is only a very short time in Elvish terms.

They say that this refers to an early version of Celeborn's history and refer back to abn extremely lengthy note on "The Mirror of Galadriel" which commences with a quote from Christopher Tolkien "There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn" [and who are we to argue? !].

The comment on Greenie' quote then refers to Appendix B and the Prologue which state that Celeborn soon went to join his grandsons at Rivendell but there is no record of the date he sought the havens. It also refers to an unpublished letter to a reader which says that as Celeborn had never lived in Valinor and would remain until he saw the beginning of the dominion of men but the separation would be brief in Elvish terms.

I suspect that his remaining may be linked to the postponed choice of Elladan and Elrohir for whatever reason that was. It is a plausible that he might remain either for his grandsons to be ready to leave or if they chose not too, horrific though the experience no doubt would be) until their mortal lives ended. However since
I get the impression that Arwen died alone in Lorien, my guess would be that at some point in between the passing of the Ringbearers and the death or Arwen, Celeborn and the twins left.

[Rumil]

Is Celeborn perhaps referring to the loss of Celebrian, his daughter?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However since I get the impression that Arwen died alone in Lorien, my guess would be that at some point in between the passing of the Ringbearers and the death or Arwen, Celeborn and the twins left.

Someone had to be there to bury her, though. It might have been Celeborn and friends, but I guess it seems unlikely that they would STILL be there at that late stage.

[The Might]

Firstly, in case it perhaps helps here is the full quotation:



Then Aragorn took leave of Celeborn and Galadriel; and the Lady said to him: ‘Elfstone, through darkness you have come to your hope, and have now all your desire. Use well the days!’
But Celeborn said: ‘Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!’

I personally feel that Celeborn is refering not to something that had happened or was going to happen in M-e, but outside it.
Elves did not know what awaited Men after their deaths, but it is said in the Silmarillion that with the passing of time Elves and even Ainur would eventually come to envy Men for the gift they receive from Eru.

Is this not perhaps already a proof for this. Is Celeborn not perhaps actually saying "I hope that what awaits you beyond death will be better than all the time I still have to spend on Arda and that Arwen will be by your side until the world is remade." ?
Just a thought.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Is Celeborn perhaps referring to the loss of Celebrian, his daughter?

That would be another possibility, and not an unlikely one, I'd say - as much possible as the others.

Originally Posted by The Might

Is this not perhaps already a proof for this. Is Celeborn not perhaps actually saying "I hope that what awaits you beyond death will be better than all the time I still have to spend on Arda and that Arwen will be by your side until the world is remade." ?

But this is very interesting. Very inventive concept! So, you mean like, that the sentence in fact is composed of two different statements: May your doom be other than mine. And also, may your treasure remain with you till the end. Did I understand it correctly? So it's like, that the second part of the sentence wouldn't be unfolding more the first part, but something totally different. Oh, how I love this! All the possibilities are possible and make this more interesting.

Hmm, is there anything else that could help us specify more which alternative was the one Celeborn (or Tolkien) had in mind? (Maybe it was intentional to leave it open to more interpretations, but somehow I doubt it.) What about context? Is it possible that it may tell us more?

[The Might]

I personally also saw Galadriel's "Use well the days!" advice right before Celeborn's statement as a foreshadowing of what was to come.
When she tells him that it is clear that he wants him to keep in mind that he is after all mortal and that there is a limit to the things he can achieve in the world. As such, Galadriel wants him to do his best in the time that remains.

Celeborn afterwards, also taking Galadriel's advice into consideration thinks about the question of mortality and wishes Aragorn to suffer a better fate, perhaps here also thinking about the gift of death.
And of course he also wishes him that his treasure, Arwen, will remain by his side until death and beyond. And this also truly happens when Arwen goes to Lórien to willingly give up her life.

[Rumil]

Just to be silly for a moment.....

We all know that Celeborn was a bit of a stand-up comedian, after all his 'old wives' comment was the funniest in LoTR.

In the scene we are discussing, he's giving Aragorn a bit of grandfather-in-law-ly advice after his wedding.

May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end

What he's saying her is 'don't let Arwen wear the trousers in the relationship and don't let her spend all your cash'.

[Thinlómien]

I always thought that he was referring to the fading of Lothlórien, his kingdom that won't remain the same and that will diminish. As much as he loved Galadriel, I cannot see him referring to her as his treasure - it sounds way too possessive, and we all knew who was the boss in that family . And it's not only that, really, there's something else there also why it would feel inappropriate and besides, if Celeborn indeed went to West later (which I hope and believe he did), he would still have Galadriel for ever, so the Galadriel-explanation would not make sense.

The Celebrian-interpretation doesn't work either, if Celeborn indeed went to the West. For Celebrían went there also, and when Celeborn (and Galadriel and Elrond and his sons - wow, I never imagined the tale had such a happy ending! ) eventually went to Valinor, he would meet her too and there is a hope she would have found healing in the West. And besides, I can't see Tolkien making Celeborn refer to Celebrían in that moment - she's not truly part of the story of LotR and I can't see why she would made a part of one of Celeborn's most important lines.

Now, The Might's interpretation is very intriguing. However, I don't think we can prove it either wrong or right, but it surely gives something to think about...

Originally Posted by Gwath

Someone had to be there to bury her, though. It might have been Celeborn and friends, but I guess it seems unlikely that they would STILL be there at that late stage.

That is such a powerful image, really. I can see it and it makes a chill run down my spine. In the graying and fading Lothlórien, its Lord stands on Cerin Amroth with a few of his closest subjects who have stayed with him. There is a great sorrow in his eyes and he looks older than ever, when he holds the dead body of his granddaughter in his arms and eventually lowers her to her grave and they bury her. Then he casts one last look at the grave and says "My work is done" and sails to the West.

But, unfortunately, I had the wits to check appendix A and it says:

Then she [Arwen] said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the sea.

So there were no Elves in Lórien anymore, and it looks like she merely went there and died and was not buried, but her corpse was left - to be blunt - to rot on Cerin Amroth and decomposed there. Or maybe it just vanished (yet remained in Certin Amroth) in some more poetic way, but nevertheless it looks like she was never buried.