What's up with Celeborn?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But then, if it were not literal grave, why to say that it was "green"... I mean, usually you don't give that concrete adjectives to unexistant things...

But surely it would exist even if it was not grave in the literal sense? I mean, there would be still be a place where what was left of Arwen would exactly be, the bones etc wouldn't vanish anywhere. Maybe her remains were just covered by leaves and mould naturally when time passed and thus she was "buried" and she would have a "grave", that would probably be green when grass started to grow on it. That's how I see it, at least.

[Gwathagor]

A rather grim picture...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

A rather grim picture...

Why, I don't see it as that grim. Maybe a little sad, but very natural... and quite poetic if you assume there were no scavenger animals etc.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Galin:

Quite so. Oops.

However, as with much of the Lorien chapters (written fifteen years before the final form of Appendix B), it's pretty clear that *at the time of writing* Tolkien regarded Celeborn as a native Avar, not even a Nando (who didn't exist), and I surmise one who therefore would or could never go West, so that his parting from Galadriel would be permanent within Time.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

However, as with much of the Lorien chapters (written fifteen years before the final form of Appendix B), it's pretty clear that *at the time of writing* Tolkien regarded Celeborn as a native Avar, not even a Nando (who didn't exist), and I surmise one who therefore would or could never go West, so that his parting from Galadriel would be permanent within Time.

Well... In Letter 347 -- written on 17 December 1972, less than a year before JRRT died -- Tolkien said, "Celeborn is a transl. of the orig. name Telporno; though said to be a kinsman of Elu Thingol he was so only afar off, for he too came from Valinor." This is in keeping with at least one version of his background story for Galadriel and Celeborn, and how they came to ME at the time of Feanor's revolt.

This is why I consider a lot of what's in the HoME books to be interesting, but not to be taken as the last word. They present variations of what he was in the process of writing or revising, but not necessarily his final thoughts on the matter, nor what he would have chosen to be published. Neither do the Letters, really; they are both insights to the mind of the man, and how he worked, and he appears to have been a writer whose creations were a constant work in progress. He was always thinking of how to improve them, how to edit them and tweak them to bring them closer to the vision he had -- at that time. I have to wonder from that letter if he forgot that he had already given Celeborn's Quenya name as Teleporno, or if he had reconsidered the form of it and decided to drop the second E. Was that what he was thinking at the time...? We don't really know.

Now, all that said, the notion of Arwen being a "treasure" shared by both Celeborn and Aragorn seems not implausible to me -- a rather grandfatherly bit of indulgence, as it were.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is why I consider a lot of what's in the HoME books to be interesting, but not to be taken as the last word.

I would submit that in cases like this there is no Last Word.

In other words, I would answer the quastion "Was Celeborn a native Silvan elf, or a Sindarin prince of Doriath, or a Teler of Aman?" with "All three-- at different times."

[Galin]

I don't know about last word, but maybe 'official story' rather.

As Celeborn as one of the Sindar is what JRRT himself decided to publish, or 'tell his Readership' (twice), so to speak, then that is the official tale then, to my mind anyway. In the contest of textual parity, draft text (of any date) and letters cannot compete here in my opinion.

I find it interesting to note the variant ideas here, but generally with Tolkien's work we have been given a rather unique vantage point due to Christopher Tolkien, and I think this should be kept in mind at least when there is Tolkien-published text on the other side of the scale.

BTW Mr. Hicklin can you elaborate on your comment on Celeborn as an Avar -- at what point, or to what text do you refer to with 'at the time of writing' -- do you mean when writing the Epilogue, or when writing the early chapters for instance?

On that note I'll note (just for interest maybe) that when working on Many Partings, Celeborn's words were first: 'Kinsman, farewell, but your doom is like to mine; for our treasure shall outlast us both.'

This interested me in any case, from H&S's new book; especially the date.

'(...) These comments imply that Celeborn could have left Middle-earth with Galadriel if he had wished, and Tolkien's replies to queries from readers seem to confirm this. In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.' Hammond And Scull, Reader's Companion