What's up with Celeborn?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What I was referring to was the fact that, while writing the Lorien chapters, probably in 1941, Tolkien quickly elevated Galadriel to a Noldorin princess but Celeborn remained what they both first appeared as: a native Silvan ruler. Judging by the writings of the late 30's and the absence of any counterindication in the LR text up to that point, the creation of the 'Nandor' still lay ahead, prob. about 1951-52. In QS and the later Annals, the Danians or Pereldar (half-Eldar) appear, but it's clear that all of them entered Beleriand and became the Green-elves. Certainly the Wood-elves of The Hobbit were envisioned at the time as Avari, and all the evidence seems to point to the conclusion that, as of 1941, Tolkien didn't conceive of the Silvan natives of Lorien as being any different, or of any Eldar existing east of the Mountains besides G. herself.

It's interesting that even so late as 1963, by which time Celeborn was unquestinably a Sinda (it appears), T would use the phrase "that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar;" which, literally, defined the Avari (the Sindar of course didn't refuse; they missed the boat looking for Thingol).

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's interesting that even so late as 1963, by which time Celeborn was unquestinably a Sinda (it appears), T would use the phrase "that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar;" which, literally, defined the Avari (the Sindar of course didn't refuse; they missed the boat looking for Thingol).

I agree. And Tolkien appears to have forgotten Appendix B (first edition): 'The exiled Noldor dwelt in Lindon, but many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forests far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest. But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin:' Subsequent revision to the Second Edition impacted this, but in any case Tolkien published again in The Road Goes Ever On that Celeborn was one of the Sindar.

I also agree that it's possible JRRT thought that Celeborn was an Avar at some early point, but I'm not sure about it being clearly so.

What I was referring to was the fact that, while writing the Lorien chapters, probably in 1941, Tolkien quickly elevated Galadriel to a Noldorin princess but Celeborn remained what they both first appeared as: a native Silvan ruler.

Did they first appear as native Silvans? According to CJRT, early phrases 'strongly suggest' both Galadriel and Celeborn to be Noldorin Exiles (note 12 Galadriel The Treason Of Isengard. A subsequent addition to the manuscript has Galadriel passing Over Sea with Melian -- note 31 Galadriel).

Judging by the writings of the late 30's and the absence of any counterindication in the LR text up to that point, the creation of the 'Nandor' still lay ahead, prob. about 1951-52. In QS and the later Annals, the Danians or Pereldar (half-Eldar) appear, but it's clear that all of them entered Beleriand and became the Green-elves.

The Quenta Silmarillion proper may be a bit vague on this, but both the Later Annals and especially the Lhammas describe the Danians as having eastern kin, for example: '... but none passed east over Eredlindon, save only the Green-elves, for they had kindred that were yet in the further lands.' (Later Annals of Beleriand). In the Lhammas (The Lost Road) the eastern Danians are called Leikvir. In Lammasethen: 'The Danians were of the Lindar [> Noldor] and began the march, but turned south and strayed, long ere Beleriand was reached. They did not come into Beleriand, and then but in part, for many ages. Some reckon them Eldarin, some Lembian. In truth they are neither and have a middle-place.'

The geography of The Lord of the Rings is not in place of course, but I think the general model (at least) of the Nandor is, before the early work on Galadriel and Celeborn. In Unfinished Tales Christopher Tolkien states (History of Galadriel And Celeborn): 'in all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf' -- referring to what turns out to be revision to the early chapter, since the statement referred to above in note 31 (Galadriel) was revised ('... for ere the Fall of Nargothrond' and etc).

In later draft text to the Appendix on Languages and The Tale of Years of the Second Age, the Avari seem equated with the East-elves. However in text F4 (The Appendix on Languages) there were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, while Celeborn is said to be a Grey-elf.

'Certainly the Wood-elves of The Hobbit were envisioned at the time as Avari, and all the evidence seems to point to the conclusion that, as of 1941, Tolkien didn't conceive of the Silvan natives of Lorien as being any different, or of any Eldar existing east of the Mountains besides G. herself.'

In chapter Medwed John Rateliff provides an outline which includes 'capture by the Sea-elves' and later argues that this refers to the Wood-elves of Mirkwood (in commentary on chapter In The Halls of the Elven-king).

'For example, the third group Tolkien mentions in The Hobbit, the Sea-elves, became divided between those who actually crossed the sea and reached Elvenhome (the Teleri) and those who remained behind in Beleriand with Thingol (the Sindar or Grey-elves); the latter group became the wood-elves of our story-- cf. the reference in the first sketchy outline to the Dwarves' 'capture by the Sea elves' (p. 229), meaning the wood-elves of Mirkwood.'

He further notes (note 40 Mirkwood): 'The Wood-elves, according to this schema, are Ilkorindi or Dark-elves, those who never came to Valinor or saw the Two Trees.' Not that I agree with everything in Rateliff's look at The Hobbit, but I think that given the details so far it is hard to be certain.

I think Tolkien's seeming later decision to exclude 'Avari' from The Lord of the Rings at least leaves things open for a similar model to that of the Danians. The Nandor of later conceptions could be Eldar according to one definition, but 'not-Eldar' according to another -- and as narrowed in The Lord of the Rings, only the Elves who sailed Over Sea and the Sindar are West-elves or Eldar.

That said, the Tolkien-published tale arguably contains odd statements that do seem to imply Celeborn was not Sindarin -- but again (and not that you disagreed necessarily) since Tolkien had published quite straightforwardly that he was, it is my view that Sindarin is thus his official clan (agrees nicely with the 1977 Silmarillion in any case). And other Tolkien-published statements should, in my opinion, be 'made' to work around this -- or at least accepted as possibly confusing but subordinate to clearer description.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

In chapter Medwed John Rateliff provides an outline which includes 'capture by the Sea-elves' and later argues that this refers to the Wood-elves of Mirkwood (in commentary on chapter In The Halls of the Elven-king).

Nice post, first of all. Rateliff's assertion that the Wood-elves are Sindarin is a direct contradiction of Tolkien, who states that Oropher and his son, Thranduil, founded a Sindarin kingdom among the Silvan Elves (just as Celeborn and Galadriel founded a similar society based on Eldar leadership over a Silvan community). I'm at work, so once again I am basing my statement on recollections that I believe to be...ummm...at least partially correct.

[Galin]

Keep in mind though that Mr. Rateliff is referring there to the time of writing this chapter of The Hobbit, noting he uses an older term Ilkorindi in this context.

In another note Rateliff mentions ideas with respect to the published Silmarillion (thus those ideas taken up by CJRT for the edited version), and there states that the Wood-elves seem to be 'a mix of Umanyar and Avari' -- and is here not asserting that the ultimate scenario concerning these Wood-elves paints them as specifically Sindarin.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Morth, at the time Tolkien wote The Hobbit the term Sindar had not been invented- and indeed, while it's clear from the Turin-poem that Doriath had evolved a much higher culture than Tinwelint's primitive Artanor in the Lost Tales, it would be a long time befoe T tried to differentiate the vague catchall Ilkorindi 'not of Kor', i.e. all Elves who never went to Valinor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Morth, at the time Tolkien wote The Hobbit the term Sindar had not been invented- and indeed, while it's clear from the Turin-poem that Doriath had evolved a much higher culture than Tinwelint's primitive Artanor in the Lost Tales, it would be a long time befoe T tried to differentiate the vague catchall Ilkorindi 'not of Kor', i.e. all Elves who never went to Valinor.

Galin and WCH:

You know what's absolutely hilarious, I totally gapped regarding the chronology of the various books' publications, and was entirely caught up in the actual history of Middle-earth as it has evolved over time. I believe this is due in part from having imbibed far too much in the 1970's.

Ummm...were you going to eat that donut? Do you mind if I have it? You wouldn't happen to have any corn chips and bean dip, would you?

*The Dark Elf stares blankly*

Okay, what were we talking about again?