Substituted Science

[alatar]

I think that the words "plausible" and "consistent" are most apt. The artifacts and knowledge that Tolkien presents to us in his works are, for the most part, both plausible ("I can see that.") and consistent ("It works that way every time.").

Take dragons - they can talk. The two that I've met, Glaurung and Smaug, both can talk and are beguiling. Glaurung seems to be much bigger than Smaug, and so tromps around whereas Smaug soars. Because of his bulkiness, Glaurung has to use bridges (like the one 'ordered' by Turin) to cross rivers. Smaug also wasn't big on swimming. Dragons may not exist in our time, but these examples from this sideways past are plausible and consistent with the reptiles that I see today (okay, gators and crocs like to swim, but...).

Take Sting. It glows when enemies are near. In another thread I considered how this could be possible, given today's technology. It does not, however, shoot flame - no matter how much that could have been useful to Sam in Cirith Ungol. Peter Jackson didn't even give the hobbit blade additional abilities (unlike Saruman's staff). However the elves made the knife, you learn what it can and cannot do, and to me that makes it more real.

Take hobbit origins. You get some hints regarding where they came from. More research doesn't yield many answers. But you know that they're much like us, and you can use your own meanderings to fill in some plausible histories - whether a new creation by Eru to thwart Sauron, or a subset of humans that, due to genes and environment, became smaller in stature, or a sub-race like the petty dwarves. Whatever, their origins do not seem utterly fantastic - arriving in a conch shell on the beach.

Make sense?

[Eönwë]

Well, Tolkien created the world before the books, didn't he?

Originally Posted by alatar

Take Sting. It glows when enemies are near. In another thread I considered how this could be possible, given today's technology. It does not, however, shoot flame - no matter how much that could have been useful to Sam in Cirith Ungol. Peter Jackson didn't even give the hobbit blade additional abilities (unlike Saruman's staff).

But Gandalf's can (well, he can...)

Anyway, in many cultures, people believed in all sorts of spirits and things, and so, to them, they really existed. Tolkien takes this and utilises it.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Anyway, in many cultures, people believed in all sorts of spirits and things, and so, to them, they really existed. Tolkien takes this and utilises it.

I'm not entirely sure I know what your response means.

Are you saying that Tolkien is using people's need/desire to believe in the fantastic, and also peoples' pseudo-belief in certain mythologies (if *that* makes any sense!)?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm not entirely sure I know what your response means.

Are you saying that Tolkien is using people's need/desire to believe in the fantastic, and also peoples' pseudo-belief in certain mythologies (if *that* makes any sense!)?

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure exactly what it means. I had a good reason for posting it at the time though. Hmm...

edit: wait, that was less than an hour ago. What's happening to me? I should log off now before things get out of hand

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I believe that Balrogs have no wings, only wing-like fins for swimming.

Challenge that.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Hot, crispy nice hobbit

I believe that Balrogs have no wings, only wing-like fins for swimming.

Challenge that.

At the risk of turning this into another Balrog Wing Debate... why would a create of shadow and flame be equipped for swimming?





Anyway, to the more pertinent topic, I agree with Alatar that consistency is key to the idea that Tolkien writes as a product of the scientific era. True randomness does not occur in Middle-Earth, and as a particular note of this, I recommend Tolkien's later philological ponderings over the origins of names that had remained static while his concept of the the Elven tongues had shifted dramatically. Tolkien was quite keen to make names like "Glorfindel, Turgon, and Elros"--names with decades long history for him, fit with the post-LotR form and roots of the Elven tongues that had changed considerably. This same attention to detail is what gives the LotR its rich character of historical detail, and is also the source of the sense of overwhelming nerdiness that some people get from Tolkien fans.

[Lush]

"Everything you can imagine is real." - Pablo Picasso.

But there are patterns to the human imagination, and maybe in a thousand years or so, we'll know the true power of it. Or so I think when I re-read Tolkien. For me, it's not just how he sets up the rules and then operates within them, it's also how he also creates this whole notion that there are entire undiscovered corners of human history, and sustains it.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

At the risk of turning this into another Balrog Wing Debate... why would a create of shadow and flame be equipped for swimming?

But that was the entire point... why would a creature of shadow and flame be able to swim in the first place? (At least, one Balrog was known to swim in LoTR, and is a thing of slime after the dip) The boundaries of science in LoTR are being tested, and no completely satisfactory answer was supplied, or even inferred.

No body is likely to loose any sleep over the tidbit in other fantasy fictions... But in the case of LoTR and the Histories, folks would still gnaw at the remains of Balrog shadow wings/fins in another half century. This testify to the powers of literature over people's perception.