The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by akhtene

My question is: WHY SUCH A POETIC, NOSTALGIC DESCRIPTION? It didn’t leave (with me) the feeling of a rightly deserved punishment, or eliminating something dangerous or hostile.

Because although it was a deserved punishment, it was a tragedy that never should have happened. The nostalgia is for Numenor as it used to be - that Numenor had been dying for a long time, and its corruption was complete before it sank - the sinking was more like the burial of something dead rather than the murder or something living.

It can hardly have pleased Eru/the Valar to sink the island - they aren't, in general, vindictive sorts who sit on their thrones waiting for people to screw up so that they can be punished. It would have pleased them much more for the Numenoreans to see the error of their ways and, well, repent. To put it another way, let's say you have a really nice vase or something in your house, and it falls and breaks. You're going to fix it if you can, especially if it only chips. But sometimes you can't fix things... if it's in a thousand pieces, no matter how much you like the vase you sweep it up and throw it out. That doesn't mean you like getting rid of it. Numenor was in that thousand pieces... it couldn't be "fixed" and didn't want to be.

[doug*platypus]

An interesting observation; it is a rather poetic and nostalgic account. I think this stems from Professor Tolkien's vision of what Atlantis may have been like. As I understand it, both Atlantis and Númenor represented a golden age of civilisation. Throughout the legendarium, there is a sense of the Númenóreans being the crowning glory of human achievement: their buildings, their prowess in battle, even aspects like their longevity and height. The fact that they could fall so far morally, to worship Melkor and assault the realm of the Valar is a tragedy, hence the wording. And the tragedy makes for good reading, to be quite honest. If the text were simply to state that "these people were bad, and so they were quite rightly punished" it would be very matter-of-fact and not so entertaining!

The description akhtene provided of the end of Angband is quite different, and rightly so. So much strife, war, bloodshed, horror and evil took place in Beleriand in the war with Morgoth, that quite frankly it was a relief when the Host of the West came in and destroyed the baddies, and the whole area was submerged by the cleansing sea. Still somewhat tragic, as many formerly beautiful or wondrous places would have been lost, and many lives as well we can surmise, but not so tragic apparently as the downfall of Númenor.

[alatar]

I stepped right over the original question, or at least that which is posed in the thread title. "To whom was the lesson directed?"

I assume that it was to the Númenóreans, showing that that which is given can be as easily taken away. Sure, these men were rewarded for their faithfulness in the breaking of Angband, but this did not give them carte blanche to do whatever caught their fancy. When they too strayed down the dark road, it lead to their ruin as well, as it does for all beings.

Even Melkor and Sauron were good once, and yet...

Anyway, the Faithful that escaped the ruin would carry the lesson forward. Some might obscure the lesson with thought of merely the "Golden Age," but that is just part of the whole story.

Another thought: Was this a retelling of the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel, where united humanity attempted to build a tower all the way to Heaven (or however the story is read)? This act of pride was 'rewarded' with the dispersing of all humanity due to divinely-enacted language barriers, and so never again could humanity unite in such a prideful way - trying to reach Heaven/Aman.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

I assume that it was to the Númenóreans, showing that that which is given can be as easily taken away. Sure, these men were rewarded for their faithfulness in the breaking of Angband, but this did not give them carte blanche to do whatever caught their fancy. When they too strayed down the dark road, it lead to their ruin as well, as it does for all beings.

Anyway, the Faithful that escaped the ruin would carry the lesson forward. Some might obscure the lesson with thought of merely the "Golden Age," but that is just part of the whole story.

To whom was the sinking of Numenor directed? The answer is threefold: 1. The Numenorean survivors, 2. Sauron, and 3. the rest of mankind.

One has to consider the flood not merely as a localized punishment for Numenor. If that were the case, Ar-Pharazon and his army's destruction would have served the purpose. With Eru's involvement (and if we grant him a deity's omnipresence), it seems obvious that he would be aware that Sauron was the arch-nemesis of the whole Ar-Pharazon invasion, and would explain how Sauron was caught utterly by surprise by the virulence of the flood. Also, like the biblical flood, the lesson of god's wrath extends beyond the Israelites (or whatever Noah's folk was termed as at that point), and acts as a parable of divine retribution for later generations of mankind.

Originally Posted by alatar

Another thought: Was this a retelling of the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel, where united humanity attempted to build a tower all the way to Heaven (or however the story is read)? This act of pride was 'rewarded' with the dispersing of all humanity due to divinely-enacted language barriers, and so never again could humanity unite in such a prideful way - trying to reach Heaven/Aman.

No, Al, I don't think it has anything to do with Babel. It is Tolkien's wedding of the biblical flood and the myth of Atlantis (thus Tolkien using the word Atalante). I think it was very clever of the Professor, and makes the story less allegorical and more in line with a world mythology rather than a direct link to a specific religion.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

To whom was the sinking of Numenor directed? The answer is threefold: 1. The Numenorean survivors, 2. Sauron, and 3. the rest of mankind.

One has to consider the flood not merely as a localized punishment for Numenor. If that were the case, Ar-Pharazon and his army's destruction would have served the purpose. With Eru's involvement (and if we grant him a deity's omnipresence), it seems obvious that he would be aware that Sauron was the arch-nemesis of the whole Ar-Pharazon invasion, and would explain how Sauron was caught utterly by surprise by the virulence of the flood. Also, like the biblical flood, the lesson of god's wrath extends beyond the Israelites (or whatever Noah's folk was termed as at that point), and acts as a parable of divine retribution for later generations of mankind.



No, Al, I don't think it has anything to do with Babel. It is Tolkien's wedding of the biblical flood and the myth of Atlantis (thus Tolkien using the word Atalante). I think it was very clever of the Professor, and makes the story less allegorical and more in line with a world mythology rather than a direct link to a specific religion.

I wonder, would there be a touch of the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah there also?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I wonder, would there be a touch of the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah there also?

Well, the Numenoreans were worshipping a false god (Morgoth), and then there was that whole human sacrifice thing, but if I recall the biblical version of the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah had more to do with sexual perversion and inhospitality (selfishness, lack of compassion). I suppose sacrificing whole families on the pyre of Morgoth would be rather inhospitable...rude even, but it seems the Numenoreons suffered more from the sins of Blasphemy and Pride (particularly since Tolkien was usually rather vague about sexual subjects); however, there is the forced marriage of Tar-Miriel by Ar-Pharazon (which, by the degree of consanguinity, could be considered incestuous by a medieval pope, and would require a hefty donation for a dispensation).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, the Numenoreans were worshipping a false god (Morgoth), and then there was that whole human sacrifice thing,

That's the main thing, I would say. In any case, in contrary to the story of Akallabeth, the biblical descriptions are usually pretty vague, but I have no doubt Tolkien was inspired by both, as well as Atlantis, as it has been already mentioned here too.

but if I recall the biblical version of the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah had more to do with sexual perversion and inhospitality (selfishness, lack of compassion).

Let me add a note here. The second one definitely, but the first one, not - seeing sexual perversion in it was only a later meaning added to the text by later interpretators. The story itself speaks mainly about inhospitability in the worst sense - visitors come to the city, and the inhabitants not only don't offer them what they can, but actually intend harm and violence towards them. The fact that it had something to do with sex is merely the "colorite" - it's just another form of the violence when you want to rape somebody who came to your house asking for a night stay there. But overall, if I took the story, I would say it is something I could imagine even on Númenor as it's depicted during Pharazon's rule (or perhaps even in some scale during the reign of the kings before him).