Manwë stumbles

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You are of the race of Man, a third creation. Manwe is of the Valar, the first created. I think there must be folk wisdom that talks of declining vigour and virility as creation continues. And anyway, Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all? It was only Melkor who went into the void seeking the Flame Imperishable. Beware the loner.

I will have to reply to this with a single word. Ulmo. He at first was Manwe's "best friend". He got "private tutoring" from Eru. Later on, he separates from the other Valar "preferring the sea", but yet, he knows more about the happeings in ME than all the otherVala through water. And water is the least marred of all things in Arda, even air (Manwe's creation). Later on, he goes against the beliefs of the other Valar, he is "the voice that gainsayeth" *wink wink Legate* but also "a light where darkness was decreed" (if that's not too long, I'm stealing that as my personal title). So even though he is not with the Valar, he is still on their side, in fact, even more on their side than themselves. He communicates with Cirdan, a firstborn, while the Valar leave ME, and only help later by sending the Istari. Even then, Ulmo, most likely unbidden by the Valar, tells Cirdan to give his ring to Olorin, which helps the free peoples greatly, and maybe without this gift Sauron would have had dominion over all of ME. Without "joining the good side", Ulmo is a good side in his own right. What I mean is that even though he distances himself from the others, he still remains true, and uncorrupted. He's actually a bit like Eru's "secret weapon". So if Ulmo, alone in the deeps of the world, and the great sea does not feel slightly inclined to turn to the dark side (even though he journeys alone), why would Manwe, when he is surrounded by all the good of the world. And Ulmo is the next step down in power from Manwe, and not by that much.


On a different note, Ulmo, in a way, caused Numenor, by helping Tuor. In fact, during its destruction, maybe that is why the Valar "laid down their government of Arda" for the time, because Ulmo would not do it. And maybe in that case, Ulmo would be right. Maybe by destroying Numenor Eru was just doing a favour for the Valar, after all the good they did for him and in his name. Or he could have got angry. Or maybe Eru was just trying to protect his Valar, and got only slightly carried away. He might not have wanted to do it all. He might have regretted it too, but no-one would have ever told mere Eldar that their Father and creator could make a mistake. Even without such cause to doubt him the Numenoreans had turned away from him to "Melkor worship", so imagine what would have happened if one of the "good" Vala like Manwe had told the Faithful (or any other men, or even elves, for that matter) of Eru's mistake. Even if the Faithful disagreed with the "turned-bad" Numenoreans, they were still related, still of the same blood. Even the Eldar have been known to doubt the "good" Valar (e.g. Feanor in the First Age). So, if this was the case, he was protecting them from themselves and their own wrong judgement. Wouldn't you lose faith if you found out that someone had wrongly destroyed your whole former country and killed everyone in/on it? I would definately doubt the Valar and/or Eru. It might have been the biggest cover-up in ME history.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Interestingly, Tolkien's Eru does not voice any kind of regret over the loss of Numenor or the removal the Deathless Realm, not regret such as is suggested in the Bible. Nor does he offer to save Numemor if a few faithful can be found. Nor does Eru ever make any kind of covenant with Elendil.

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.

I think this is good point. After all, it's not as if Sauron was wholly responsible for the corruption of Numenor. The rift between the King's Men and the Faithful had become entrenched a thousand years before he showed up, and rumblings against the Ban of the Valar had been around even before that. If I recall correctly, Sauron took umbrage at Ar-Pharazon proclaiming himself the Lord of Middle-earth, as the Valar took umbrage at him calling himself the Lord of the West (a title that already belonged more rightfully to Manwe). The people of Numenor had a long time to choose which side they would be on, that of the King or that of Eru and the Valar, and most of them appear to have chosen the King. One could argue that this came about out of fear, but when the second to last king, Tar-Palantir, attempted to restore the old ways of friendship with the Elves and faithfulness to the Valar and the One, it doesn't appear that the people wholly embraced this opportunity for change. When Ar-Pharazon forced himself on Tar-Palantir's daughter to proclaim himself king, he was not stopped -- something I think rather unlikely, if the people had indeed chosen to return to the old ways. Even so, they were given additional warnings, and though Sauron spread lies as to their true meaning, the Faithful knew them for lies, and took what action they could. Why did they know that it was time to flee? How did they figure this out, or who told them? One might suspect that they were warned -- but not by anyone in Numenor. If Manwe sent signs in the form of storms and eagles, others of the Valar, or even Eru Himself, could have sent warnings more direct to the Faithful. I suspect they probably did -- and I also suspect that Eru regretted the destruction of Numenor as much as He regretted all that happened in the First Age because of mistakes the Valar had made in their dealings with the Elves.

To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.

Indeed. Men want what they don't have. This simple fact should have been clear to the Valar had they spent any time among men.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladan

I might take issue with that, as it is said

And again

Interesting quotes, as I was thinking of these passages from The Silm:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethern. . . . Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor.

Manwe is said to be the most noble, but these passages to me mark Melkor as preeminent among the Ainur. Most particular, he was given a share in all the gifts of the Ainur, whereas the others merely had their own gift. Also, while he like Aule wishes to create Beings, Aule keeps his creation secret and does not add it to the theme. Melkor is the only Ainur whose thoughts intrude differently upon the Music.

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

But now Iluvatar sad and harkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imaginings that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.

Melkor is the first of the Ainur who is mentioned in the text. In my edition which starts on p. 3, Melkor is first named on p. 4, and no other Ainur is named until p.8.
This is Ulmo. Manwe is named two lines later. Because of this extraordinary attention to just one of the Ainur, I would not, as Ibrîniðilpathânezel has said, see Melkor and Manwe as the twin brothers Nissyen and Efnissyen of the Welsh Mabinogian, two halves of a whole in terms of good and evil, although I agree with her that the Welsh tales carry some interesting 'applications' to Tolkien and are worth considering in any discussion.

Melkor is portrayed as an arrogant intellect, supreme in his confidence and abilities. I have met many very gifted and intelligent people in my life, and very often it is those who have the highest intellectual and imaginative abilities who are the most self-assured of their own desires and wants and who become, as does Melkor, "impatient of it's [the Void's] emptiness", that is to say, impatient of the lesser capabilies of others and their work and ambitious to pursue their own (allegedly) greater vision. Because of this comparison, I often see Melkor's problem as the effect of his own superlative abilities. I think only Melkor among the Ainur has this kind of conceited self-confidence, and, more importantly, impatience.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.

My point was that the text does not 'go into' Eru's reaction as the bilical text does into Yahweh's reaction. Speaking three times of a convenant--and a covenant with animals as well as people--provides far more of a psychological perspective than does the mere action of allowing the faithful to escape. And the passage I was referring to regarding Abraham's repeated requests to Yahweh to save Sodom if only a few faithful can be found is usually explicated as Abraham's enlightened vision--other tribes automatically assume that the evilness of the sinful affects the good as well, thus jusitfying the loss of all lives. Here, Abraham's intervention is regarded as one of the first steps in a developing new ethic or moral vision. We don't get any kind of explict statement of this regarding Numenor. We can imagine Iluvatar being regretful, but that is interpretation, as there is no textual evidence for it. That's all I meant. Iluvatar is given lines to speak early in the Ainulindale, but not in the the Akallabeth at the conclusion.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.

This question can be asked of Eru as well. Why did he not know know how Melkor's greater gifts would effect him? Why did he know know how Men would feel about the Gift of Death, particularly with deathless elves around? And why would he not know how elves would become so careless of life and engage in such killing fields?

Of course, what parent can truly realise who his or her child is? A unique creation is, ultimately, unknowable to the creator.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

This question can be asked of Eru as well. Why did he not know know how Melkor's greater gifts would effect him? Why did he know know how Men would feel about the Gift of Death, particularly with deathless elves around? And why would he not know how elves would become so careless of life and engage in such killing fields?

Of course, what parent can truly realise who his or her child is? A unique creation is, ultimately, unknowable to the creator.

Well, simply put, doesn't it just make the "music" more interesting, and "rebound even more to [his] glory"? But I'm just paraphrasing here.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, simply put, doesn't it just make the "music" more interesting, and "rebound even more to [his] glory"? But I'm just paraphrasing here.

Oh, absolutely, although I'd be more inclined to say the glory rebounds to Tolkien rather than Eru.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think it's entirely possible that Eru DID know, but wanted to watch it play out, regardless of the knowing. To me (being a musician and composer), it's rather like knowing all the notes of a particular score, and how it is to be played, versus listening to an actual performance. I know (all too sadly ) that there is a huge difference between a mechanical reproduction of the sound (as made with a synthesizer or computer), and the sound as it is made by living performers. The notes will still be the same, the dynamics and tempi the same -- but a live performer gives subtle nuances of interpretation that a machine will not. Hearing someone else perform one of my works is always a surprise to me, sometimes a good surprise, sometimes a bad one. But good or bad, the performance intrigues me, even though I know the composition quite well indeed, and often, I learn from it, or am inspired to some new idea by it. Perhaps Eru Himself "learned" from watching Creation in action rather than in thought, or wanted to draw some new inspiration from observation.

An apt analogy, nicely put, and without any qualms when limited to the musical analogy.

Yet what does it mean for a god to allow and accept bloodshed and battle for his own creative amusement and inspiration? Are elves and men and hobbits and dwarves but the playthings in Eru's sandbox? And does Manwe et al acquiesce to this?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, I can tell you from my own limited experience that watching one's creation be interpreted and altered by others is not always an amusing or inspiring occupation. Frequently, it can be quite painful. But the pain doesn't stop the desire to create, nor does it usually make one regret having done so -- though it might prompt one to haul out the eraser and pen to perform extensive edits.

[alatar]

Thanks for all of the responses.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet what does it mean for a god to allow and accept bloodshed and battle for his own creative amusement and inspiration? Are elves and men and hobbits and dwarves but the playthings in Eru's sandbox? And does Manwe et al acquiesce to this?

When Aule makes the dwarves, they are simply automatons - wind-up dolls - that can do nothing not programmed into them by their creator. So much so that, if Aule, intending to the destroy them, ordered them to form a queue and, as each approached its creator, was literally hammered into the ground, each subsequent dwarf would step and submit to being destroyed, not even thinking of not obeying.

Eru changed this, breathing life into Aule's creations, who shirked when Aule thought to destroy them.

So what of Manwe? Does he have the same spark within, a flame that, like the dwarves, would make him flinch when Eru calls? Why would men, elves, etc have the notion to flee - to disobey the creator - and not Manwe?

I guess all that I'm looking for is a moment of doubt to spring forth from Manwe. One little moment to show that he's not some machine.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

This question can be asked of Eru as well. Why did he not know know how Melkor's greater gifts would effect him? Why did he know know how Men would feel about the Gift of Death, particularly with deathless elves around? And why would he not know how elves would become so careless of life and engage in such killing fields?

I think it's entirely possible that Eru DID know, but wanted to watch it play out, regardless of the knowing. To me (being a musician and composer), it's rather like knowing all the notes of a particular score, and how it is to be played, versus listening to an actual performance. I know (all too sadly ) that there is a huge difference between a mechanical reproduction of the sound (as made with a synthesizer or computer), and the sound as it is made by living performers. The notes will still be the same, the dynamics and tempi the same -- but a live performer gives subtle nuances of interpretation that a machine will not. Hearing someone else perform one of my works is always a surprise to me, sometimes a good surprise, sometimes a bad one. But good or bad, the performance intrigues me, even though I know the composition quite well indeed, and often, I learn from it, or am inspired to some new idea by it. Perhaps Eru Himself "learned" from watching Creation in action rather than in thought, or wanted to draw some new inspiration from observation.

It has always intrigued me that Tolkien used similar descriptions for Melkor and Feanor, who were enemies and yet had so much in common. The greater the heights reached, the more terrible the fall, should they slip into the abyss of pride and impatience, it seems.