Mordor inspired by Nazi Germany?

[Rumil]

Hello all,

nice to see Burra striding the Downs as of old

Formendacil, I was thinking about Middle Earth Karma, and who should come up with a possibly relevant quote but good old Theoden

oft evil will shall evil mar

Karm-ish if not strictly Karmic!

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

Originally Posted by Rumil

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

Would the LOTR been the same if WWII never happened? Inspiration may have subconciously occurred within the grim context of war, and war itself was central to much of the events in the LOTR.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

Originally Posted by Mansun

Would the LOTR been the same if WWII never happened? Inspiration may have subconciously occurred within the grim context of war, and war itself was central to much of the events in the LOTR.

I find it hard to believe there wasn't some effect on his writing from the war, but at the same time whatever effect it might have had probably wasn't as big as one could expect.
As Morthoron posted:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

The crucial chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past', is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in my mind, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.

Though WWII was a world changing event of the 1900's and its impact is still felt heavily today, WWII tends to get broken down into good vs. evil, light winning against darkness, (the evil Axis vs the vitreous Allies), and the ideas of good vs. evil are ones that go back to the first stories told word of mouth from parent to child. Tolkien's work can be compared to other world events that had just as profound effects. That doesn't mean that's where Tolkien found influence for his world. As I said before the joy of his work is the ability to allow the reader to find a connection to their own life, to other events in the world. Though it doesn't mean that's where Tolkien was coming from it doesn't make the reader wrong. Good literature is open to interpretation.

[Aaron]

I don't think that Mordor was necessarily inspired by the Nazi state. I don't really buy into the notion that Tolkien's work was inspired by Nazi Germany.
In any case, Mordor was driven by the will of Sauron alone. Whereas the Nazi's had a whole system of thought, they weren't brainless savages like the Orcs. No, the scary thing is that many Nazi's were well educated and yet still lowered themselves to such barbarism.

[burrahobbit]

It isn't that Mordor was "not necessarily" inspired by Germany, it's that it was "necessarily not" inspired by it. Explicitly, empiracally so.

[bilbo_baggins]

burrahobbit is right.

And, as per the trend of Bethberry's inquest into details in the comparison of Mordor with Nazi Germany, I have one thought: was Sauron a patriot?

I might push more than a few buttons here, but Hitler was, perhaps only at the beginning, a patriot. Perhaps insanity and power drove it from his mind in the later years (1935-45), but following the collapse of Germany after WWI, Hitler was deeply moved by the plight of his fellow Germans, and it was his patriotism, not necessarily insanity, that began his struggle to bring Germany back into the "Successful Nations" list. I concede and agree that most of his actions were misguided, cruel, foolish, insane, diabolical, etc., but his beginning motives were rather noble.

Did Sauron have such motives? I think not...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

bilbo, your comparison of patriotic motives is not applicable on both counts. The word "patriot" denotes a loyalty to the country of one's father. Sauron was a Maia - for whom/which country would he have had patriotic feelings? And Hitler was born an Austrian; any patriotic feelings he might have had for Germany were opportunistic at best.

[Lalwendë]

I think the only aspect of LotR that you could argue was influenced directly by WWII was the creation of the Fell Beasts (good call, Rumil). I believe there is something in one of the letters about this, about how Tolkien was horrified by airborne warfare - and I understand he was not wholly happy about Christopher being an RAF man, either.

Mordor is certainly run on totalitarian lines, but totalitarianism is not limited to Hitler. It existed before him, it will exist after him.