Gandalf for President?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf the White, as Steward of Middle Earth (a slightly flattering but truthful generalisation), may not have been officially installed as a King or ruler, but that does not mean he could not do it to a superior level to others such as Denethor and Theoden, who in many ways could not govern themselves or their countries without much counsel on policy making.

Yes, but that's kind of the point of Gandalf: to counsel, to assist, and to guide. And, for what it's worth, your assertion about Denethor is rather unfair, since he took pretty much no one's counsel, and while this ended in personal despair for him, he was remarkably successful until that point at leading Gondor bravely in defence against a much more powerful enemy.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

No, there was never a point where Tolkien referred to Gandalf as "Steward of Middle-earth", and he certainly was not "in charge of governing Middle-earth as a whole" ever. You seem to ignore Aragorn, Theoden, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil, Dain and Brand.



Formendacil understands Gandalf's concept of leadership. It is not to govern or lead in a political sense, it is as a mentor to kings and a missionary from the Valar. As I stated previously, when Gandalf's mission was completed, he left, and no politician in the history of the world quit when he was at the pinnacle of power.

So, no, Gandalf would not be a good president, because he would never be a president.

Gandalf took over Saruman as Head of the White Council when Saruman's staff was broken; in reality Gandalf had taken over this role as soon as Saruman became traitor. Also Galadriel and others of the Council preferred Gandalf to be the head from the start ahead of Saruman when the Council first formed. The White Council is a political representation of Middle Earth, and whilst Saruman did at first lead it, much distrust crept into the minds of the Council members throughout his leadership.

As Elrond pointed out, in all matters concerned with the Ring, Gandalf had been the chief. And finally, Aragorn envied Gandalf to be their banner to lead them to victory against Mordor. Overall, Gandalf was in charge of the War of the Ring against Sauron - an entire Age of work at least.

Even Sauron, at the Black Gate through the foul Mouth of Sauron, insisted that Gandalf first and foremost be shown the tokens captured from Frodo. So Sauron recognised Gandalf to be the chief of the opposition.

There is no doubt that Gandalf is the best (save Sauron perhaps) candidate in the LOTR to govern many countries at a time, as well as other key political figures. Whilst he may never run for US president out of personal preference, it is folly to discard his capabilities over more politically manipulative machiavellian characters. In society today, machiavellian characters are loathed as evil, and eventually people read between the lines and see through it.

Formendacil, I do like your style of arguing your points effectively, without being too heated on disagreement.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

There is no doubt that Gandalf is the best (save Sauron perhaps) candidate in the LOTR to govern many countries at a time, as well as other key political figures.

Hmmm...Gandalf as best, followed by Sauron in your estimation? The statement is contradictory to what you have maintained throughout this thread.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Whilst he may never run for US president out of personal preference, it is folly to discard his capabilities over more politically manipulative machiavellian characters. In society today, machiavellian characters are loathed as evil, and eventually people read between the lines and see through it.

Again, from a political standpoint, you misunderstand Gandalf's capabilities. He rigidly maintained a pre-set agenda, which is the correct attitude for a missionary, but not a politician. There would be no give-and-take for Gandalf's administration, no detente which is a requirement in modern politics. Bending and swaying to political realities was not a Gandalf trait. He would want nothing to do with modern realpolitick. Intractability can be virtuous if you seek to inspire (in an almost religously zealous manner of Gandalf), but it wouldn't work during Congressional budget meetings.

As far as Machiavelli, it is required reading for most political science degrees, and he is one of the most influential political philosophers of all time. I'm quite sure if you did a poll, you'd find that most most high level politicians and heads of corporations have read The Prince (or Machiavelli's other noted work The Art of War). Please read up on Napoleon or Churchill, both whom admired Machiavelli.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...Gandalf as best, followed by Sauron in your estimation? The statement is contradictory to what you have maintained throughout this thread.

As far as Machiavelli, it is required reading for most political science degrees, and he is one of the most influential political philosophers of all time. I'm quite sure if you did a poll, you'd find that most most high level politicians and heads of corporations have read The Prince (or Machiavelli's other noted work The Art of War). Please read up on Napoleon or Churchill, both whom admired Machiavelli.

It is common for leading firms and organisations to set personaility tests which aim to identify Machiavelli and weed them out. So, whilst potentially useful in politics in a manipulative sense, I have no time for people who use evil tactics in today's society to get their way, and there is some evidence to suggest that Machiavelli are affiliated to a psychopathic mental disorder, one which affected Gollum, no doubt. Infact, Saruman and Denethor both went mad partly as a result of Machiavellenism thinking.

Sauron, of course would be a good political candidate on his record in the LOTR, as he excelled in almost all areas of government. To have built a fortress and countless armies on a massive scale which are almost unassailable in his own land is a memorable feat. His folly over not protecting the borders of Mordor more keenly, and not continuing to hunt for the Ring were his only downfalls that ruined his entire legacy. Sauron had re-emerged strong continuosly after every defeat, his empire lasting may thousands of years. For the reasons given above, though, I would not vote for him.

Saruman's empire fell almost overnight. . . .

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is common for leading firms and organisations to set personaility tests which aim to identify Machiavelli and weed them out. So, whilst potentially useful in politics in a manipulative sense, I have no time for people who use evil tactics in today's society to get their way, and there is some evidence to suggest that Machiavelli are affiliated to a psychopathic mental disorder, one which affected Gollum, no doubt. Infact, Saruman and Denethor both went mad partly as a result of Machiavellenism thinking..

Direct references to what you are claiming, please; otherwise, I will have to consider your claims false. Having worked with many major corporations in implementing training and hiring procedures within customer service and human resource organizations, I have never heard of a "Machiavelli test" as you assert. In addition, I have never heard that there is any such mental disorder affiliated with reading or practicing precepts propounded by Machiavelli. If that were the case, then any number of current and past great politicians, world leaders, writers, philosophers and CEO's --from John Milton to Winston Churchill -- had this mental disorder.

Again, the need for direct references are essential when making such outrageous statements.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Sauron, of course would be a good political candidate on his record in the LOTR, as he excelled in almost all areas of government. To have built a fortress and countless armies on a massive scale which are almost unassailable in his own land is a memorable feat. His folly over not protecting the borders of Mordor more keenly, and not continuing to hunt for the Ring were his only downfalls that ruined his entire legacy. Sauron had re-emerged strong continuosly after every defeat, his empire lasting may thousands of years. For the reasons given above, though, I would not vote for him.

You are contradicting prior statements, like this one:

Building an army of orcs and wargs is an achievement? In my book, anyone who abandons the forces of Good for orcs is weak and is a freak.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Saruman's empire fell almost overnight. . . .

Your idea of 'overnight' is interesting. Define what you mean by overnight. Are you aware of how long Saruman was in Orthanc?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Direct references to what you are claiming, please; otherwise, I will have to consider your claims false. Having worked with many major corporations in implementing training and hiring procedures within customer service and human resource organizations, I have never heard of a "Machiavelli test" as you assert. In addition, I have never heard that there is any such mental disorder affiliated with reading or practicing precepts propounded by Machiavelli. If that were the case, then any number of current and past great politicians, world leaders, writers, philosophers and CEO's --from John Milton to Winston Churchill -- had this mental disorder.

Again, the need for direct references are essential when making such outrageous statements.



You are contradicting prior statements, like this one:





Your idea of 'overnight' is interesting. Define what you mean by overnight. Are you aware of how long Saruman was in Orthanc?

To summarise:-

- As an expert on Machiavellianism, you should be able to look up on the matter yourself. I do not wish to derail from the LOTR beyond this. Any psychiatrist would link Machiavellianism with such a mental disorder. That is not to say a Machiavelli = mental psychopath. The research paper below is beyond the scope of this argument for the non-scientific community here.

http://www.nswiop.nsw.edu.au/pages/e..._28_Oct_05.pdf

- Sauron did much more than build an army of orcs and wargs, he built a devastating and unassailable country of immeasurable strength that would stain the land of Mordor and the generations of inhabitants of Middle Earth for eternity.

- In the relative sense, Isengard fell overnight in comparison to the achievements of Mordor. Orthanc was in the end but a hiding place for Saruman.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And, for what it's worth, your assertion about Denethor is rather unfair, since he took pretty much no one's counsel, and while this ended in personal despair for him, he was remarkably successful until that point at leading Gondor bravely in defence against a much more powerful enemy.

Denethor took his counsel from the Palantir, i.e. Sauron.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

- As an expert on Machiavellenism, you should be able to look up on the matter yourself. I do not wish to derail from the LOTR beyond this. .

I am not an expert on Machiavelli; however, I have read his works (have you?), and am quite aware of the profound and ongoing effect he has had on modern politics. I will take your inability to provide proper citations as an admission that you are unable to do so.

Originally Posted by Mansun

- - Sauron did much more than build an army of orcs and wargs, he built a devastating and unassailable country of immeasurable strength that would stain the land of Mordor and the generations of inhabitants of Middle Earth for eternity.

Sauron also lost nearly every major war he was associated with. So much for strategy. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Mansun

- - In the relative sense, Isengard fell overnight in comparison to the achievements of Mordor.

In a relative sense, Gondor and Rohan are younger than Mordor. We are talking about centuries in any case, and terming something 'overnight' is not the best definition of hundreds of years, even in a relative sense. *shrugs again*

P.S. I notice you added an edit onto last your quote:

Originally Posted by Manusun

Any psychiatrist would link Machiavellianism with such a mental disorder. That is not to say a Machiavelli = mental psychopath.

Nice trying to cover your tracks; however, any psychiatrist could link Christianity, drinking water or collecting stamps to mental disorders (depending on how one manipulates the facts). For instance 100% of murderers breathe; therefore, there is a direct link between breathing and murder. You made an outrageous statement that you cannot back up with direct references. Sorry.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Denethor took his counsel from the Palantir, i.e. Sauron.

That's like saying that the White House takes its counsel from the CIA... if the CIA were unable to talk, composed of no people, and only capable of handing reports to the president that were taken down by agents in the field.

Now, I'm not saying that Sauron didn't influence Denethor. As far as that goes, Napoleon influenced Wellington, Pompey influenced Caesar, and Saladin influenced Richard the Lionheart. It's the definition of enemies to affect each other. If they didn't, they wouldn't be enemies, but mutually exclusive non-relations.

Just because Sauron had the power to make sure that what Denethor saw in the palantír appeared overwhelming and invincible does not mean that Denethor took counsel with Sauron! Quite the contrary: in spite of seeing this sort of doom and gloom for years thanks the limited intelligence the palantír was able to afford him, Denethor persisted in holding Gondor steady against assault and only failed in hope after the death of Boromir--more a personal tragedy affecting his mental health, as it would any father's, than a deliberate success on Sauron's part.

It's a pity, really, that we only get to see Denethor at the very end, after all the doom appears to be coming true, after Boromir is dead, and after Gandalf shows up. After all, while we know Gandalf as a pretty good guy, his personality is such that it's no surprise he rubs some people the wrong way, and Denethor is clearly one of them. Gandalf's arrival, while good for the city and necessary for its ultimate survival, probably did more than anything to precipitate Denethor's final collapse.