Gandalf for President?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Direct references to what you are claiming, please; otherwise, I will have to consider your claims false. Having worked with many major corporations in implementing training and hiring procedures within customer service and human resource organizations, I have never heard of a "Machiavelli test" as you assert. In addition, I have never heard that there is any such mental disorder affiliated with reading or practicing precepts propounded by Machiavelli. If that were the case, then any number of current and past great politicians, world leaders, writers, philosophers and CEO's --from John Milton to Winston Churchill -- had this mental disorder.

Again, the need for direct references are essential when making such outrageous statements.



You are contradicting prior statements, like this one:





Your idea of 'overnight' is interesting. Define what you mean by overnight. Are you aware of how long Saruman was in Orthanc?

To summarise:-

- As an expert on Machiavellianism, you should be able to look up on the matter yourself. I do not wish to derail from the LOTR beyond this. Any psychiatrist would link Machiavellianism with such a mental disorder. That is not to say a Machiavelli = mental psychopath. The research paper below is beyond the scope of this argument for the non-scientific community here.

http://www.nswiop.nsw.edu.au/pages/e..._28_Oct_05.pdf

- Sauron did much more than build an army of orcs and wargs, he built a devastating and unassailable country of immeasurable strength that would stain the land of Mordor and the generations of inhabitants of Middle Earth for eternity.

- In the relative sense, Isengard fell overnight in comparison to the achievements of Mordor. Orthanc was in the end but a hiding place for Saruman.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And, for what it's worth, your assertion about Denethor is rather unfair, since he took pretty much no one's counsel, and while this ended in personal despair for him, he was remarkably successful until that point at leading Gondor bravely in defence against a much more powerful enemy.

Denethor took his counsel from the Palantir, i.e. Sauron.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

- As an expert on Machiavellenism, you should be able to look up on the matter yourself. I do not wish to derail from the LOTR beyond this. .

I am not an expert on Machiavelli; however, I have read his works (have you?), and am quite aware of the profound and ongoing effect he has had on modern politics. I will take your inability to provide proper citations as an admission that you are unable to do so.

Originally Posted by Mansun

- - Sauron did much more than build an army of orcs and wargs, he built a devastating and unassailable country of immeasurable strength that would stain the land of Mordor and the generations of inhabitants of Middle Earth for eternity.

Sauron also lost nearly every major war he was associated with. So much for strategy. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Mansun

- - In the relative sense, Isengard fell overnight in comparison to the achievements of Mordor.

In a relative sense, Gondor and Rohan are younger than Mordor. We are talking about centuries in any case, and terming something 'overnight' is not the best definition of hundreds of years, even in a relative sense. *shrugs again*

P.S. I notice you added an edit onto last your quote:

Originally Posted by Manusun

Any psychiatrist would link Machiavellianism with such a mental disorder. That is not to say a Machiavelli = mental psychopath.

Nice trying to cover your tracks; however, any psychiatrist could link Christianity, drinking water or collecting stamps to mental disorders (depending on how one manipulates the facts). For instance 100% of murderers breathe; therefore, there is a direct link between breathing and murder. You made an outrageous statement that you cannot back up with direct references. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am not an expert on Machiavelli; however, I have read his works (have you?), and am quite aware of the profound and ongoing effect he has had on modern politics. I will take your inability to provide proper citations as an admission that you are unable to do so.

See updates above.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

See updates above.

Replied in kind above. Again, please cite references, or quit offering your opinions as facts.

P.S. Another late edit found here:

Originally Posted by Mansun

The research paper below is beyond the scope of this argument for the non-scientific community here.

http://www.nswiop.nsw.edu.au/pages/e..._28_Oct_05.pdf

Interestingly, the Machiavellian Scale has nothing to do with a mental disorder, nor is it a test corporations use in qualifying candidates (having administered such employee screening tests, I can tell you corporations are more interested in theft than Machiavellianism); of course, you would understand that if you had read the summation of the paper you cited, which states "is thus far theoretical, and awaits empirical testing". As a matter of fact, anyone can take a "Mach IV Test" to see if they are Machiavellian. Most people fall in the middle of the scale (so even you, Mansun, have quite a bit of Machiavelli in you, I am sure). It is found here:

http://www.salon.com/books/it/1999/09/13/machtest/

High Machs constitute a distinct type: charming, confident and glib, but also arrogant, calculating and cynical, prone to manipulate and exploit....
True low Machs, however, can be kind of dependent, submissive and socially inept.

Hmmm...I would not want to be a Low Mach, would you?

Not surprisingly, persons with a High Mach score are neither sociopaths nor psycopaths, and tend to make outstanding politicians and corporate CEO's (it also represents the vast majority of political leaders from the U.S. and Britain for the past couple centuries -- whether you rate them good or bad on your Barometric Indices of Character Habits).

Needless to say the term Machiavellianism in the psychological sense is a convenient name (like Lou Gehrig's disease) to place on a test of people's demeanor.

[Gwathagor]

Hmmm.

The Istari were strictly forbidden to govern or rule over the Children of Illuvatar, and so the holding of a political office such as the presidency would be out of the question for a dutiful wizard like Gandalf. He would probably turn down the presidency if we offered it to him. However, the fact that he would have no aspirations to political power would make him the only safe candidate, as most politicians are exactly the opposite. Because of his unwillingness to play the politics game, and because of his lack of interest in power, he would likely not be elected.

But, if the impossible happened, and Gandalf not only was elected but accepted the presidency, I have no doubt that he would be a wise and just leader.

On another note, P.J.'s team must have seen something of Churchill's position and policies in Gandalf as well, given the wizard's near direct quoting of Winston at the end of TTT (albeit with the locations changed).

[Groin Redbeard]

You make some good points, Gwathagor. Although the Istari aren't allowed to govern people they are allowed to council and advice them. So maybe we should downgrade Gandalf to Secretary of State or Defense. What do you say?

[Gwathagor]

Yes, I'm certain he'd feel more at home on the cabinet.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Denethor took his counsel from the Palantir, i.e. Sauron.

That's like saying that the White House takes its counsel from the CIA... if the CIA were unable to talk, composed of no people, and only capable of handing reports to the president that were taken down by agents in the field.

Now, I'm not saying that Sauron didn't influence Denethor. As far as that goes, Napoleon influenced Wellington, Pompey influenced Caesar, and Saladin influenced Richard the Lionheart. It's the definition of enemies to affect each other. If they didn't, they wouldn't be enemies, but mutually exclusive non-relations.

Just because Sauron had the power to make sure that what Denethor saw in the palantír appeared overwhelming and invincible does not mean that Denethor took counsel with Sauron! Quite the contrary: in spite of seeing this sort of doom and gloom for years thanks the limited intelligence the palantír was able to afford him, Denethor persisted in holding Gondor steady against assault and only failed in hope after the death of Boromir--more a personal tragedy affecting his mental health, as it would any father's, than a deliberate success on Sauron's part.

It's a pity, really, that we only get to see Denethor at the very end, after all the doom appears to be coming true, after Boromir is dead, and after Gandalf shows up. After all, while we know Gandalf as a pretty good guy, his personality is such that it's no surprise he rubs some people the wrong way, and Denethor is clearly one of them. Gandalf's arrival, while good for the city and necessary for its ultimate survival, probably did more than anything to precipitate Denethor's final collapse.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

That's like saying that the White House takes its counsel from the CIA... if the CIA were unable to talk, composed of no people, and only capable of handing reports to the president that were taken down by agents in the field.

The CIA vs the Palantir is an impossible analogy.

Denethor's entire mind and thoughts behind his plans were a direct result of what he saw in the Palantir. Sauron broke Denethor's mind through forseeing doom in the Palantir, submitting deadly fear and submission in the heart of Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Just because Sauron had the power to make sure that what Denethor saw in the palantír appeared overwhelming and invincible does not mean that Denethor took counsel with Sauron!

You have jumped about a google of steps further than what I originally meant. The visions Denethor saw in the Palantir were the works of Sauron, hence all of Denethor's thinking was indirectly under the control (but not command) of Sauron. I did not advocate that Denethor spoke with Sauron, and although I was quite vague, I am still suprised you were not able to read between the lines:-

Denethor took his counsel from the Palantir, i.e. Sauron.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The CIA vs the Palantir is an impossible analogy.

Oh, I rather doubt that, myself. Both are, really, just sources of intelligence--well, and communication as the Palantíri were originally used, but not at the time of Denethor--which is hardly a misanalogy.

Originally Posted by Mansun

You have jumped about a google of steps further than what I originally meant. The visions Denethor saw in the Palantir were the works of Sauron, hence all of Denethor's thinking was indirectly under the control (but not command) of Sauron. I did not advocate that Denethor spoke with Sauron, and although I was quite vague, I am still suprised you were not able to read between the lines:-

Denethor took his counsel from the Palantir, i.e. Sauron.

In that case I fear you have misapplied the word "counsel", because to take counsel is to take advice from. The Palantír is not a sentient object, so it cannot give advice, which left me with the only interpretation that Sauron was giving advice to Denethor--whether solicited or otherwise, and refuting that was clearly my position.

Now, you say that Denethor did not speak with Sauron... to which I agree, but I take that to further mean that Denethor did not then take his counsel from Sauron. Denethor kept his own counsel, as I have already averred, and Sauron was not offering advice--he was feeding Denethor false intelligence, to use the more modern phrasing. Granted, over the course of the years this broke down Denethor's spirit, and Denethor should have known better than the use the Palantír, which they had stopped using after the fall of Minas Ithil for good reason... but understanding the word "counsel" as I do, it is entirely a misconstruction to say that Denethor took his counsel from the Palantír or, through it, Sauron. Rather, he constructed his counsel on the basis of the false information Sauron fed him through it.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In that case I fear you have misapplied the word "counsel", because to take counsel is to take advice from. The Palantír is not a sentient object, so it cannot give advice, which left me with the only interpretation that Sauron was giving advice to Denethor--whether solicited or otherwise, and refuting that was clearly my position.

The Palantir cannot give advice in the common sense, but Denethor could still use it to draw counsel from what he saw through it. Indirectly, the Palantir, hence Sauron, was dictating the mind and actions of Denethor into submission.