Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Why not feminist? She did cool stuff. Not just the Morgoth-enchanting....

She acted as ambassador for the peoples of Middle Earth. She moved Mandos as he had never been moved before. She softened the ground for Earendil, IMO.

Rubbish - she acted purely out of self interest founded from her lust for Beren. She did nothing until then and allowed herself to be kept in a cage. She does not speak she merely twitters yet everyone falls over themselves because she is beautiful. In addition I hate the story because I think of what an unhappy time Edith idealised as Luthien had.

Idril wipes the floor with her - Tolkien deified his brunettes but the blondes definitely have more fun

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Rubbish - she acted purely out of self interest founded from her lust for Beren.

I would have blamed it on her genes, which saw an opportunity to create a hybrid species that would increase their (the genes) chances of survival. Luthien was just a vehicle through which they acted.

Don't hate her because she is beautiful; are we sure that her beauty was merely outwardly? Some of us troglodytes see inner as well as outer beauty.

She did nothing until then and allowed herself to be kept in a cage.

She was just pacing herself, husbanding her resources until they would be needed.

She does not speak she merely twitters yet everyone falls over themselves because she is beautiful.

Brevity in speech can be a gift.

Idril wipes the floor with her - Tolkien deified his brunettes but the blondes definitely have more fun

Can we not like more than one thing? Some prefer roses, others daisies, some Birds of Paradise, and yet to me, the dandelions plucked from my yard in the hand of my daughter are the best of all.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Don't hate her because she is beautiful; are we sure that her beauty was merely outwardly? Some of us troglodytes see inner as well as outer beauty.

.

I don't hate her for being beautiful I hate the fact that it is the sole criterion. That Luthien is placed highest for her beauty where as those who were wise and resourceful and served their people as well as being beautiful are sidelined.

And dying for love is so irritatingly adolescent.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't hate her for being beautiful I hate the fact that it is the sole criterion.

Maybe that's just shorthand for the beauty of her soul and for the deeds and hope that sprung from her hands.

That Luthien is placed highest for her beauty where as those who were wise and resourceful and served their people as well as being beautiful are sidelined.

Maybe Tolkien was just being a realist. Thinking about school alumni this weekend, the reason why our school reunions are so disorganized, ill-conceived and planned, and therefore mostly unattended is that, back in the day when hormones ruled our brains, we elected our male and female class officers due to looks/charisma and not necessarily because they would make for good leaders.

Has anyone else noticed this happening? Surely, come this November in 'Merica, most voters will vote for a candidate only after a careful examination of all candidates' positions, strengths, skills, deeds and psychological evalutaions.

And dying for love is so irritatingly adolescent.

Not sure what you mean, and when I first read this, I thought that you had written irrationally adolescent, which I thought was an oxymoron, and note that that is only apparent when one is not either.

[Mithalwen]

And may be it was short-hand for a complete absence of character ....


Thinking back to a fascinating lecture David Doughan gave at Oxonmoot 06 about how Tolkien's attitude to women changed as he aged, I think Luthien was too much a product of his earlier attitude. Having heard reports of Priscilla being (unsuprisingly) formidable intellectually, I can't help speculating if being the father of a clever and strongminded daughter forced him to alter his opinions.

Oh that Romeo and Juliet stuff ... silly way to carry on Beren is no Kester Woodseaves - he really was "a man to die for".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And may be it was short-hand for a complete absence of character ....

Do I hear a poll forming somewhere on the Downs?

about how Tolkien's attitude to women changed as he aged, I think Luthien was too much a product of his earlier attitude.

Speaking from the male side and from experience, if one's attitudes regarding the 'fairer half' don't change over time, one might want to examine one's toes to see if there be a little expiration tag attached.

Oh that Romeo and Juliet stuff ... silly way to carry on Beren is no Kester Woodseaves - he really was "a man to die for".

What adolescent didn't want to die for a love, at least once? I too may have been once benighted...

And, seeing my wife's mother lose her husband of nearly fifty years, she too has wanted to die, if only to be with him, to be by his side once more, and she is well beyond the years of adolescence, may mean that later years only change the forms, but not the intensity, of the expression.

[Mithalwen]

Oh it makes so much more sense after 50 years... though your Mother in Law was truly blessed - my Great -grandmother apparently used to say that she shouldn't mind a few years a widow..... and didn't get them. But it is rather overdramatic and unnecessary - considering the duration of most relationships taking a single sleeping tablet should suffice....