Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But it is rather overdramatic and unnecessary - considering the duration of most relationships taking a single sleeping tablet should suffice....

But you must walk yourself back to those years, when so much that now seems silly was SO important. What's truly sad is when one so young is successful in taking the short bridge, not realizing that much of what seems 'to die for' will be forgotten in just a few years.

On the other hand, can we truly say that Luthien ever acted immaturely? She took down Morgoth, gave her father and company the slip, and brought back the Man and the Silmaril, and so she was much more than just a pretty face.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

But you must walk yourself back to those years, when so much that now seems silly was SO important. What's truly sad is when one so young is successful in taking the short bridge, not realizing that much of what seems 'to die for' will be forgotten in just a few years.

Which is exactly my point. Should have got over that drip Beren .... And I don't see what is so clever about giving Thingol the slip. Any girl worth her salt handles Daddy far better. Idril managed even to get Daddy's blessing for her mortal beau without all those ridiculous shenanigans. Luthien is entirely self obsessed and motivated only by self interest - that is very adolescent.

[Lalaith]

Idril managed even to get Daddy's blessing for her mortal beau without all those ridiculous shenanigans

well, yes, because it suited Tolkien's plotlines for Gondolin/Tuor better. I don't think it was due to any intrinsic difference between the characters...
Plus...wasn't Idril an even earlier character in the mythology than even Luthien? (I may be wrong on this)

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one Mith.

Rune's idea about feminism is quite interesting.

women have done great deeds, but that does not make you a feminist

As is Mith's point about Priscilla.
Eowyn (written I think to please Priscilla - where did I read that?) was aware of the constraints facing women and rebelled against them. Neither she, nor probably her creator, had ever heard of the concept of feminism. Does that make her, nonetheless, a feminist figure? I think so. Rune, and others, may not.

Which reminds me.
"I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the stomach of a concrete elephant. First I'm going to have a little drinkie, and then I'm going to execute the whole bally lot of you."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Rune's idea about feminism is quite interesting.
As is Mith's point about Priscilla.

Eowyn (written I think to please Priscilla - where did I read that?) was aware of the constraints facing women and rebelled against them. Neither she, nor probably her creator, had ever heard of the concept of feminism. Does that make her, nonetheless, a feminist figure? I think so. Rune, and others, may not.

It should probably have said "many women have done great deeds, but that does not make them a feminist" and not "women have done great deeds, but that does not make you a feminist"

Anyways I do agree with what you say, I belive that you can be symbol of something you might not even understand or belive in.

My posts are just not well written.

[Lalaith]

Rune, don't worry, I did understand you meant 'them' not 'you'.

I was pondering on whether you could 'be' something before that concept had been named. Eg feminism.
You could ponder the same issue with Marxism, Christianity, etc....

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Lalaith;564990]well, yes, because it suited Tolkien's plotlines for Gondolin/Tuor better. I don't think it was due to any intrinsic difference between the characters...
Plus...wasn't Idril an even earlier character in the mythology than even Luthien? (I may be wrong on this)

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one Mith.

QUOTE]

Oh come on you think that Luthien is as she is to suit the plot? Luthien is idealised as the perfect woman - passive other than as meets the needs of her man for whom she sacrifices everything. I just find this completely and irredeemably horrific.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh come on you think that Luthien is as she is to suit the plot? Luthien is idealised as the perfect woman - passive other than as meets the needs of her man for whom she sacrifices everything. I just find this completely and irredeemably horrific.

Ummm...but the hotness factor supersedes all the feminist claptrap.

*The Dark Elf, realizing he has once again accidently spoken his mind out loud, quicky reverts to subterfuge*

Well, aside from Galadriel and Haleth (with a small mention of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins wielding her dreaded bumbershoot), there is a dearth of a strong female presence in Middle-earth. Melian never told Thingol to just shut the heck up (which would've happened in most marriages), Erendis is rather impetuous and spoiled, Miriel meekly acquiesces and surrenders her crown to Ar-Pharazon (and then just as meekly drowns afterward), Celebrian surrenders to melancholy after her 'rape' by the orcs, and even Arwen, save for her defiance of Elrond, merely follows the fairy tale ritual of giving it up to the enchanted frog who becomes Prince Charming.

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

[Mithalwen]

The first time I read it I couldn't believe that Aragorn could prefer her to Eowyn - after all "A woman should never learn to sew, and if she can she shouldn't admit to it.". Then I realised that Faramir is Mr Wonderful and was very glad.. you couldn't really call Arwen defiant (unless you are *gulp* referring to the films ) in which case I'd say petulant.

I don't ask for miracles just a bit of wit and spark - and that is the blondes - Idril, Galadriel, Eowyn - Erendis lacks style but not strength.

Actually it is a miracle that I like this stuff at all

[Tuor in Gondolin]

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

Well, I think you'd have to include Luthien taking on Morgoth
(via Beleriand Idol song contest) in Angband, and
how about Tar-Ancalime? (Now there's a proto-feminist,
and a scary date ).

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, aside from Galadriel and Haleth (with a small mention of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins wielding her dreaded bumbershoot), there is a dearth of a strong female presence in Middle-earth. Melian never told Thingol to just shut the heck up (which would've happened in most marriages), Erendis is rather impetuous and spoiled, Miriel meekly acquiesces and surrenders her crown to Ar-Pharazon (and then just as meekly drowns afterward), Celebrian surrenders to melancholy after her 'rape' by the orcs, and even Arwen, save for her defiance of Elrond, merely follows the fairy tale ritual of giving it up to the enchanted frog who becomes Prince Charming.

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

It bothered me that after Thingol died, Melian just went away weeping. She had the power to keep off evil from her realm, and besides, if you're a monarch aren't you supposed to protect your people? I suppose being dowager, she isn't. She left it in Dior's hands entirely. Had she stayed and endured her grief (which is pretty understandable, the loss of a darling husband), Doriath would stand longer, maybe as long as Gondolin. But then, Melian being such a "weak" character fits in with the whole plot for the fall of the kingdoms in Beleriand.

But about Erendis: it shocked me. (Well, I was a young and brought up with traditional Catholic teaching and values). The whole concept of men being half-elves, great and proud, and women but little playthings, "for their bodies' needs," or "if fair to adorn their table and hearth", "of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain."

Her advice to her daughter, "sink your roots into the rock and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves," is it not a way of saying "you're a woman, but of a great heritage. You are bound to get gender discriminations, but then you gotta prove them wrong"?

Ancalime however is not the perfect feminist manifesto, though I think she is one of the strongest female characters of Tolkien. She did not refuse the scepter, she was clever, but no mention of Numenor gaining further glory--she even abandoned her father's policy after he died. The event at Emerie, "where even the sheep seemed to make fun of her" further gives the impression you can't be female and a very strong leader, or you'll be made fun of. And Ancalime still had to marry, because of the patriarchal laws. And when Gondor and Arnor were established, Elendil didn't really follow the "new law", did he?

Once in a class someone said that Eowyn can pass for a feminist character, she being able to kill the WK, and prior to that entrusted with the care of Edoras. But it was equally countered, she had the help of Merry, and if Aragorn didn't really refuse her she wouldn't have gone to Gondor seeking death (rather too emo-ey, isn't it?); she was chosen in Edoras simply because she was the last of the line of Eorl, and she wasn't even thought of before Hama (or whoever) suggested it. Furthermore, after the war, she accepted her fate as a woman: not even queen, but a healer. Eomer and Aragorn still had problems of renegade orcs even after Sauron, but Eowyn no longer rode with them.

The most freedom Tolkien's females have is the freedom to choose who they will love. From Melian, Luthien, Galadriel, Idril, Arwen, Eowyn, etc, except Ancalime who did not want it. Eowyn had to settle for "less", but still it was her choice. But even the freedom to choose their loves restricted them. You don't really hear of ugly females, only fair ones who would be counted amongst the great because they married so-and-so. But even by the choice of their lovers were they, even the most willful, chained, in a matter of speaking.

[Lalaith]

Really thoughtful analysis Lindale. However...

fair ones who would be counted amongst the great because they married so-and-so

Galadriel chose to leave Valinor for Middle Earth and was counted among the great entirely in her own right. That decision was nothing to do with who she loved, and her marriage to Celeborn seems almost incidental to her identity.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Lindale;565279]
Furthermore, after the war, she accepted her fate as a woman: not even queen, but a healer. Eomer and Aragorn still had problems of renegade orcs even after Sauron, but Eowyn no longer rode with them.

QUOTE]

I agree with a lot of what you have said but I have to dispute this. Eowyn does not passively accept her fate. She chooses it. Eowyn is admirable in so many ways. She is fair and noble by birth but she is brave and high hearted and strong. And intelligent. Yes, Grima's words may have had an effect but she knows there is no point in staying at Edoras (yet somehow she is usually judged harder than the men who defy orders) and that is no doubt why Elfhelm colludes with her riding - and UT tells us that the Marshal was not averse to following his own wisdom. She sees only death and despair and Aragorn is the only available escape route. I do not seeing why choosing life and the love of a man who loves her for herself stops her being feminist. Healing isn't a specifically female occupation in ME - the greatest healers are men - Elrond and his sons and Aragorn and while there are women in the houses of healing it is male led.
I am pretty sure that Eowyn wasn't planning on emptying bedpans....

In elven culture healers abstained as much as possible from warfare and even hunting though in Gondorian (and indeed English) culture the healer-king is part of the tradition and the King would inevitably also be a warrior.