The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Gordis]

I always wondered why elves hadn't killed the WK....

Because they didn't have enough guts for it?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Because they didn't have enough guts for it?

No, because the Witch-King ran and hid.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

No, because the Witch-King ran and hid.

That's right, he saw Glorfindel coming and he blew town...

Also, in my opinion some have misread the encounter between the Witch King and Gandalf in the books (Peter Jackson for sure)--I think the WK decided to postpone the matchup. Hearing the horns of Rohan is not much of a reason to leave...

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

That's right, he saw Glorfindel coming and he blew town...

The Witch King's entire army was destroyed, I don't think that gives him much reason to stay.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

The Witch King's entire army was destroyed, I don't think that gives him much reason to stay.

That is true, but it did not stop him from charging Earnur

...he singled out the Captain of Gonodor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him...But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-King turned to flight and passed into the shadows.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by obloquy

No, because the Witch-King ran and hid.

Yes, that is the reason why Glorfindel didn't kill him, obloquy. But you know quite well that Glorfindel was no average Elf. Actually, the reincarnated Elf was quite unique - closer to Maiar in strength.

In Rivendell there were but few who could openly ride against the nazgul - most likely only three (see Glorfindel's words explaining his presence on the Great Road to Aragorn).

The rest of the Elves were hardly more capable than a Man to withstand a nazgul.
At least none had tried:

[The other three Black Riders] are left to guard the eastern borders, to watch the Greenway, and guard against Elves or Dúnedain coming from eastwards.- "Hunt for the Ring" RC p.145
[The Witch-King] himself, [with two other Riders] redoubles his vigilance on the east-borders along the Greenway... his counsels disturbed by threat of attack. Some of the Dúnedain have met Elvish messengers, and [he] is uneasily aware that many enemies are watching him and though none has yet come with power to challenge him.- RC P. 164

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Also, in my opinion some have misread the encounter between the Witch King and Gandalf in the books (Peter Jackson for sure)--I think the WK decided to postpone the matchup. Hearing the horns of Rohan is not much of a reason to leave...

Indeed, but it is still a reason, an excuse.
The WK always hated to put his life in danger - and not because of cowardice, as I have tried to explain in my previous post:

Gordis: The Witch-King had no idea that the One Ring was about to be unmade. While the Ring existed and the Nine Rings had power, the Gift of Men was not available to the Nazgul. If killed, they would likely become powerless spirits without a hroa, roaming Middle-Earth but unable to interact with the World of Light in any way - and that until the Rings existed. Basically it would be eternal misery. Nothing to look forward to, thus the Witch-King must have been much more reluctant to die than any mortal Man.

Had he been on his own, he would never have dared to oppose the reincarnated White Wizard, a powerful Maia, in one-to-one duel. But he was not on his own at the Gates of Minas Tirith - there is no doubt that Sauron was watching him like a hawk. He must have known he was overmatched, but he needed an excuse to leave - and Rohan had provided it. He feared death, but he feared Sauron's wrath more.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, that is the reason why Glorfindel didn't kill him, obloquy. But you know quite well that Glorfindel was no average Elf. Actually, the reincarnated Elf was quite unique - closer to Maiar in strength.

His reincarnation was relatively unique, but his power was not. Note that he is still never spoken of as one of the greatest of the Eldar. Gandalf was not overly impressed when he explained that Frodo had seen "an Elf lord revealed in his wrath." In any case, the distinction you've drawn between Glorfindel and "the Elves" is a false one: if Glorfindel had slain the Witch-King it would not be unacceptable to say "the Elves killed the Witch-King," so in this case it is also rightly said that the Witch-King fled from the Elves. He did flee specifically from Glorfindel, but Glorfindel was not the most powerful of the Eldar remaining.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by obloquy

His reincarnation was relatively unique, but his power was not. Note that he is still never spoken of as one of the greatest of the Eldar. Gandalf was not overly impressed when he explained that Frodo had seen "an Elf lord revealed in his wrath." In any case, the distinction you've drawn between Glorfindel and "the Elves" is a false one: if Glorfindel had slain the Witch-King it would not be unacceptable to say "the Elves killed the Witch-King," so in this case it is also rightly said that the Witch-King fled from the Elves. He did flee specifically from Glorfindel, but Glorfindel was not the most powerful of the Eldar remaining.

I have to disagree with you - I think he was the most powerful of the Eldar remaining in ME. Actually, Gandalf says:

And here in Rivendell there live still some of [Sauron's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. -LOTR ,"Many meetings"

I think it is enough to single Glorfindel out among the Elves - as a Calaquende of great power. But Gandalf was still tight-lipped: he didn't explain that G had been reincarnated, neither did he explain his own Maia status.

Here is what is said about the reincarnated Elves in "Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos:, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring:

The Eldar say that more than one re-birth is seldom recorded. But the reasons for this they do not fully know. Maybe, it is so ordered by the will of Eru; while the Re-born they say are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs

Also look at the notes following the Appendix to "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" concerning reincarnated Elves:

The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.

Well, it sounds like super-powers to me...

Edit : found another quote in Home 12: "Last Writings"- "Glorfindel"

For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice..
An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party,(1) more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf - Olorin about Third Age 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel - note how the Witch-king flies from him, although all others (such as King Earnur) however brave could not induce their horses to face him

And don't you get an impression (from reading only LOTR) that the WK feared Glorfindel more than he did Gandalf? The nazgul did attack the Grey Maia on Weathertop, the WK was preparing (albeit reluctantly) to fight him at the Gates, but the nazgul never challenged Glorfindel, even when he barred the road to them, hindering their mission.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have to disagree with you - I think he was the most powerful of the Eldar remaining.

Actually Gandalf says:

"Lords of the Eldar"..."great power"..."one of the mighty of the Firstborn."

I recognize that he was one of the most powerful Elves in Middle-earth ("one of" perhaps quite a large pool of Elves), but I dispute particularly that he had climbed to the tier of Galadriel, who is explicitly stated to be one of the three greatest Eldar (multiple sources) and "the last remaining of the Great of the High Elves" (Letters); or that of Elrond, descendant of the greatest Elda Luthien and of Melian. Further, Tolkien says that if Galadriel's presumption that she could supplant Sauron as the master of the Ring is accurate, then so also could Gandalf and especially Elrond. Elrond and Glorfindel are just two "lords of the Eldar" of the "some" that Gandalf mentions in your quote.

Cirdan, too, was likely more powerful than Glorfindel, despite never having been to Aman: he was guardian of one of the Three, so we must assume he was capable of guarding it from Sauron and his servants. He was present at Sauron's defeat in the Second Age, at Gil-galad's side. He was also perhaps the oldest and wisest of the Elves remaining in Middle-earth, and both age and wisdom seem to play a role in spiritual power. Additionally, if some part of Glorfindel's enhancement owed to his "return to innocence" (mentioned below), Cirdan's status as a genuine Firstborn must be considered. Finally, it was said at the Council of Elrond that "what power still remains [in Middle-earth] lies [...] in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien." This suggests that Cirdan presided over other powerful individuals as well, and it can reasonably be supposed that this is also true of Galadriel.

Here is what is said about the reincarnated Elves in "Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos:, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth's Ring:

You misread. "More than one rebirth" refers to one Elf being reborn more than once. Tolkien clarifies in his writings on Glorfindel that reincarnation was fairly common practice for Elves, since separation of fea from hroa was so unnatural to them. It was "the duty of the Valar" to restore slain Elves to incarnate life.

However, Glorfindel remains unique for a couple of reasons. First, he is the only reincarnated character, i.e. we do not become familiar with any other reincarnated Elves--though presumably many other Elves who were characters were also reincarnated but thought it a good opportunity to go into retirement. Second, before he was slain he had been banned from returning to Valinor. The ban was lifted for him specifically because his death purged him of the guilt for which the ban was imposed (should be enough, right?), and also because of the sacrificial and crucial nature of his death.

Also look at the notes following the Appendix to "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" concerning reincarnated Elves:
Well, it sounds like super-powers to me...

And yet it was not Glorfindel's reincarnation that Gandalf said gave him 'great power against the seen and unseen.' It was simply by virtue of his having dwelt in the Blessed Realm. Gandalf also clearly does not consider Glorfindel unique when explaining this to Frodo: "in Rivendell live some of his chief foes [...] lords of the Eldar"; "they do not fear the Ringwraiths."

And don't you get an impression (from reading only LOTR) that the WK feared Glorfindel more than he did Gandalf? The nazgul did attack the Grey Maia on Weathertop, the WK was preparing (albeit reluctantly) to fight him at the Gates, but the nazgul never challenged Glorfindel, even when he barred the road to them, hindering their mission.

You might be right about who the Witch-King feared more, but there's no reason to suppose WK ever perceived Gandalf's true power or nature. The Witch-King's perception has no bearing on the truth, which is that Gandalf was the single most powerful being in Middle-earth during the Third Age.

Edit : found another quote in Home 12: "Last Writings"- "Glorfindel"

I'm glad you added this because it reminded me of a point I forgot to include in this post. Two paragraphs after the text you quote, Tolkien explains that for Manwe to have devised a special means of transporting Glorfindel from Aman to Middle-earth (necessary because of the removal of Aman from "the Circles of the World"), and to have sought exception to Iluvatar's ordinance that no one was to return from Aman, was "improbable and would make Glorfindel of greater power and importance than seems fitting." Tellingly, exactly such an exception was made in order to send Gandalf to aid Middle-earth in the Third Age.

[Gordis]

obloquy - I will not argue with you about the relative powers of Galadriel/Elrond/Cirdan vs. Glofindel, or especially about their greatness. It is all very delicate. I agree the first three were greater than Glorfindel, maybe also wiser. I only wished to point out that Glorfindel was both a Calaquende (not the most powerful of them, no) and a reincarnated being - unique in ME, as far as we know. I guess that would double his powers at least in the World of Shadow, his power against the Nazgul specifically.

For instance, Cirdan may be more powerful than Glorfindel and would best him in a fight (if such a silly thing were even possible) but not being a Calaquende, Cirdan would likely be at a disadvantage when dealing with the nazgul, while Glorfindel would have double advantages. That is what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by obloquy

And yet it was not Glorfindel's reincarnation that Gandalf said gave him 'great power against the seen and unseen.' It was simply by virtue of his having dwelt in the Blessed Realm. Gandalf also clearly does not consider Glorfindel unique when explaining this to Frodo: "in Rivendell live some of his chief foes [...] lords of the Eldar"; "they do not fear the Ringwraiths."

Right - in LOTR it is clear that any Calaquende is a threat to the nazgul. Yet, in later writings Tolkien has thought of additional reasons that would make Glorfindel so unique vs. the nazgul.

Originally Posted by obloquy

You might be right about who the Witch-King feared more, but there's no reason to suppose WK ever perceived Gandalf's true power or nature. The Witch-King's perception has no bearing on the truth, which is that Gandalf was the single most powerful being in Middle-earth during the Third Age.

I guess Gandalf the Grey himself would have said that Saruman was more powerful and Gandalf the White did say that Sauron "was mightier still".

As to the Witch-King, Gandalf said: "...my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "- LOTR
The Witch-King himself had a good idea of Gandalf's powers:

[The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force. - Hunt for the Ring RC p.167

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

"Lords of the Eldar"..."great power"..."one of the mighty of the Firstborn."

I recognize that he was one of the most powerful Elves in Middle-earth ("one of" perhaps quite a large pool of Elves), but I dispute particularly that he had climbed to the tier of Galadriel, who is explicitly stated to be one of the three greatest Eldar (multiple sources) and "the last remaining of the Great of the High Elves" (Letters); or that of Elrond, descendant of the greatest Elda Luthien and of Melian. Further, Tolkien says that if Galadriel's presumption that she could supplant Sauron as the master of the Ring is accurate, then so also could Gandalf and especially Elrond. Elrond and Glorfindel are just two "lords of the Eldar" of the "some" that Gandalf mentions in your quote.
.

But Tolkien says in "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales that

...Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle Earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action.

Originally Posted by obloquy

You might be right about who the Witch-King feared more, but there's no reason to suppose WK ever perceived Gandalf's true power or nature. The Witch-King's perception has no bearing on the truth, which is that Gandalf was the single most powerful being in Middle-earth during the Third Age.

This could be correct, since mostly Gandalf kept his power veiled. Saruman does not seem to have realized that his powers had been augmented until his own staff is broken. However, Gandalf does seem to show some of his "hidden power" when he drives off the Nazgul in order to save Faramir. Somehow the Nazgul got the message there, which is also why I suspect that the WK decided to delay a confrontation at the gates...