Are Orcs That Bad?

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Originally Posted by Boromir88

And it's interesting that the one time we really experience the pain of war (on the baddies side) is Sam's first encounter, of war, with the dead Haradrim soldier:

True that. The Hobbits never see any glamour in war as far as I can remember. Bilbo's account of the Battle of Five Armies is his 'least favourite part of the adventure' and although no symphathy is evoked for the Goblins there's little or no glorification of the rout either.

Btw, I quickly browsed the Absolute Evil thread and and it does interest me.

[Stoatly Grimes]

If a race of beings is determined that they are going to kill you and eat your flesh, then I think it's reasonable to attempt to prevent them from doing so. Evil is always an arbitrary concept, but self-preservation is fairly black-and-white (at least in this case).

I imagine the thought-process goes something like this: "The angry orc coming towards me with a blood-stained scimitar does not want to chat; rather, he means to cause significant harm upon my person, because he hates me. Call me belligerent, but I reckon I'll kill him first, as I do not wish to be brutally hacked apart."

It doesn't really matter why or even if they are truly evil, beyond the philosophical interest. If you hesitate to kill them because they might not be evil, they will kill you, perhaps after sustained torture.

I can picture a group of "progressive" individuals picketing at the gate of Minas Tirith with placards reading "Orcs have feelings too!" and being promptly butchered after venturing into Mount Gundabad to discuss potential leaflet drives.

I suppose you could attempt to discuss morality and metaphysics with a gang of marauding orcs over a coffee, but I fear they are some way beyond reasoned discourse.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It doesn't really matter why or even if they are truly evil, beyond the philosophical interest. If you hesitate to kill them because they might not be evil, they will kill you, perhaps after sustained torture.

I can picture a group of "progressive" individuals picketing at the gate of Minas Tirith with placards reading "Orcs have feelings too!" and being promptly butchered after venturing into Mount Gundabad to discuss potential leaflet drives.

I suppose you could attempt to discuss morality and metaphysics with a gang of marauding orcs

Shame on you! This is not the forum for right wing political posturing.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Stoatly Grimes

If a race of beings is determined that they are going to kill you and eat your flesh, then I think it's reasonable to attempt to prevent them from doing so. Evil is always an arbitrary concept, but self-preservation is fairly black-and-white (at least in this case).

I imagine the thought-process goes something like this: "The angry orc coming towards me with a blood-stained scimitar does not want to chat; rather, he means to cause significant harm upon my person, because he hates me. Call me belligerent, but I reckon I'll kill him first, as I do not wish to be brutally hacked apart."

It doesn't really matter why or even if they are truly evil, beyond the philosophical interest. If you hesitate to kill them because they might not be evil, they will kill you, perhaps after sustained torture.

Well, well, but that's what's been contested on threads like this or the one which had been here recently - I think it was called something like "Orcseys-always evil?" or something like that. But I think this, what you say, is the usual approach from an average Orc towards a human or elf, or (not to forget) also from an average Gondorian soldier towards an Orc. But I would like to point out that it's not necessarily like that. 90% of this approach (of this thinking "if I don't kill it, it kills me") is the chain of wrongdoings from Orcs to Men and from Men to Orcs in the past, which is passed down generations and taught to little Gondorian children or pressed into the heads of Orcs by Sauron. It is "reasonable", under these circumstances, but when you go back and come to the first, "Utumno generation", there was the first impulse - we are quite lucky that we can see to the beginning of the chain of events, and pretty clearly! - and that came from Morgoth, who said: "Now, go out and raid some Elven villages." The first Orcs, basically, had little other choice as slaves. The Elves, then, had little other choice than to defend themselves just the way like SG illustrated above - something they haven't ever seen before suddenly jumped out of the bushes and started to massacre them. Okay. And from that moment on, it was always like that - thanks to deathless guys like Morgoth who kept sending Orcs out, and thus the other races started to build the long-term experience: "Orcs always kill people". And also it was quite likely for some Orcs to actually start to enjoy these raids, killing and such. The Orcs also were not doing much else in their life than raiding Elven/human settlements, and so for them, this was also "normal". Maybe, at one point, one or two stopped to think like this, whether it is right to do it - however still the majority was used to it, the same as let's say humans were to cultivating crops, or it was still worth it more, or easier to leave things like they are than trying to raise a rebellion against Morgoths&Saurons up there, and such... I think it would take a long, long transformation with the condition of the Orcs being set free at first, until they could become at least somewhat "peaceful" race. But on the side of the Free Peoples, there was more of a chance to come up with a different approach to the other side (for example if such a tribe of "free Orcs" formed).

[Boromir88]

Well said Legate.

Besides the reasons mentioned by you, and others, I think you have to wonder about this:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law.~HoME X; Morgoth's Ring

Tolkien hints that by the standards of Elves and Men, orcs might have become "irredeemable," yet the Valar (and Eru) may see it differently. But I think you have to ask, how can Orcs become "redeemed" in a society (of Elves and Men) that believe, by their own standards, are irredeemable?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Tolkien hints that by the standards of Elves and Men, orcs might have become "irredeemable," yet the Valar (and Eru) may see it differently. But I think you have to ask, how can Orcs become "redeemed" in a society (of Elves and Men) that believe, by their own standards, are irredeemable?

Tolkien's societal norms are static, unchanging for ages (one of the few real dislikes I have for the overall tale); ergo, there is little chance for attitudinal changes within societies regarding those of another race (Elves of Lorien still holding a centuries-old grudge against the Dwarves, for instance). I guess what one would have to really ask is, given the static nature of societies (Orcs included), does it seem likely that such redemption could take place? The answer would be no, given the information we have.

Tolkien societies are not like those of the antebellum South and North United States, where negroes were considered chattel and not-human or subhuman in the South, but with a growing abolitionist movement in the North that fought against the inhumane and reactionary policies of slavery.

I don't see a Gondorion Orkish Abolition League (GOAL) for the better treatment of Orks being started up anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien societies are not like those of the antebellum South and North United States, where negroes were considered chattel and not-human or subhuman in the South, but with a growing abolitionist movement in the North that fought against the inhumane and reactionary policies of slavery.

I don't see a Gondorion Orkish Abolition League (GOAL) for the better treatment of Orks being started up anytime soon.

That reminds me of one thing about the Uruk Hai I've never seen any artists or film-makers take up on: they are often described as being black.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien's societal norms are static, unchanging for ages (one of the few real dislikes I have for the overall tale); ergo, there is little chance for attitudinal changes within societies regarding those of another race (Elves of Lorien still holding a centuries-old grudge against the Dwarves, for instance). I guess what one would have to really ask is, given the static nature of societies (Orcs included), does it seem likely that such redemption could take place? The answer would be no, given the information we have.

Well... actually the thing you mentioned with the Lórien Elves made me think of a possible hope for the Orcs. The Elves held a grudge against the Dwarves, but when Gimli came with the Fellowship, and Galadriel approved letting him in, and later, it became kind of first spark of the friendship between the Elves of Lórien and the Dwarves. Maybe had something similar happened with an Orc...? I am inclined to think at least Galadriel would be able to think favourably about him. Had there been a company of Elf-friends who would happen to take an Orc with them - which is not that impossible to think, that there will be at least a few folks, for example including Gandalf, who would get friendly with some Orc, let's say a fostered one or whatever - and a similar situation occured, I think that would be a nice new beginning for inter-racial relationships.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien's societal norms are static, unchanging for ages (one of the few real dislikes I have for the overall tale); ergo, there is little chance for attitudinal changes within societies regarding those of another race (Elves of Lorien still holding a centuries-old grudge against the Dwarves, for instance). I guess what one would have to really ask is, given the static nature of societies (Orcs included), does it seem likely that such redemption could take place? The answer would be no, given the information we have.

But isn't the staticness partly because elves are immortal (Men change alliances at certain times). If everyone around you has lived through a war against the orcs, and tells you how disgusting and cruel they are (first hand account) and what the did to Jimbobaurë, etc, then you would have something aggainst them too. Things are much less easily forgotten by elves because of their immortality. Think about- Cirdan has lived through probably all the torments of the Elves and Men, and would have a good cause to oppose orcs. He can go on telling people about the evilness lf orcs for 3+ ages. That must have an effect (or rather, lower the likelihood of change). If you are brought up in an orc-hating society, with people that have actually seen their horrors, then there is not much chance of change.

Likewise Morgoth, then Sauron, constantly drive their orcs against the "goodies". The ircs don't stand a chance. They give in to what (by the marvels of genetic engineering) their impulses are, having no regard for social harmony, and are taught to enjoy torturing. It's quite hard to escape from such a totalitarian system, when your leader is a powerful god. Not to mention he can read your mind.

Dwarves are a mostly cut-off people from the outside world (they keep to themselves), so their thoughts stagnate within their tunnels. Not to mention the many attacks on them by "goblins".

Men, on the other hand, are different. Having a short lifespan compared to dwarves and elves, things are forgotten much more quickly. Their alliances do fluctuate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Men, on the other hand, are different. Having a short lifespan compared to dwarves and elves, things are forgotten much more quickly. Their alliances do fluctuate.

These last sentences actually hold something in it. That's also what I thought, then, that after the Elves left Middle-Earth and the Dominion of Men came, it would be much more likely for the Men and Orcs to become friendly at some times, points, moments? And then also, another thought, it sure wasn't that bad with Man-Orc relationships - although they may not have been best friends, in many battles for example the Haradrim or Easterlings and the Orcs fought alongside each other, and in some places they lived next to each other. Their relationships probably were not ideal, of course, but it at least wasn't like that every Orc was an enemy on sight - and sure the long-time living together must have brought at least several good inter-racial friendships, if even to a limited number of people... so in a paradox, the grounds for better Orc-Man relationships were not actually in the "good post-Númenorean civilisation" but among the Men from the East and South... and now, when I think of the possible half-Orc crossbreeds... hmm... (ah yes, now I remember, I think I wrote something about Uglúkromeo&Juliet on that old thread about Orcs back then...)