Are Orcs That Bad?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Men, on the other hand, are different. Having a short lifespan compared to dwarves and elves, things are forgotten much more quickly. Their alliances do fluctuate.

These last sentences actually hold something in it. That's also what I thought, then, that after the Elves left Middle-Earth and the Dominion of Men came, it would be much more likely for the Men and Orcs to become friendly at some times, points, moments? And then also, another thought, it sure wasn't that bad with Man-Orc relationships - although they may not have been best friends, in many battles for example the Haradrim or Easterlings and the Orcs fought alongside each other, and in some places they lived next to each other. Their relationships probably were not ideal, of course, but it at least wasn't like that every Orc was an enemy on sight - and sure the long-time living together must have brought at least several good inter-racial friendships, if even to a limited number of people... so in a paradox, the grounds for better Orc-Man relationships were not actually in the "good post-Númenorean civilisation" but among the Men from the East and South... and now, when I think of the possible half-Orc crossbreeds... hmm... (ah yes, now I remember, I think I wrote something about Uglúkromeo&Juliet on that old thread about Orcs back then...)

[Thinlómien]

I'm glad I decided to read through this thread after all... very interesting and thought-provoking. I won't stay here to write a novel, though, because I have dozens of other things to do today, unfortunately. However, I will say one thing. Some people have complained that in the Silmarillion, Orcs are merely cannon fodder, while they are more like real enemy soldiers in LotR. I don't think the difference is in how Orcs were in different ages, or not that much even in how their opponents were in different ages, but rather, in the difference of the narrative of the two books. Silmarillion's style is far more epic and mythology-like, and in all old myths and tales we have the heroes defeating unnumbered hordes of enemies. I think it's as simple as that.

[Lalwendë]

I've just finished reading Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go and it has given me a dreadful thought about the Orcs...

Never Let Me Go deals with cloned people raised for the sole purpose of donating their organs (this won't spoil the plot for you, do not worry!). As you read the novel you notice that there are lots of cliches used in the voice of the narrator and as it moves on you realise why, and that is these people have been raised to have limited expectations, focussed on the job they are destined to do, to be harvested - the limited language reflects the limited expectations. Nobody rebels, though they have small hopes in their limited way, they even hurry more quickly along the path to being harvested. They have their purpose and (maddeningly to the reader) seem to accept it.

That we see no Orcs rebel and refuse to be the mere cannon fodder of Sauron and Morgoth suggests to me that they too have been raised to expect nothing else. Even the hopes of Shagrat and Gorbag are small ones, simply involving more of the same but without a master.

Orcs have had their 'humanity' stripped away and are utilitarian beings bred and raised for a purpose (I'm shuddering to think now of the millions of real children being 'educated' to become the obedient desk jockeys and consumers of the future....). I feel sorry for them at the same time as feeling a wee bit superior because I wasn't just bred to be some Dark Lord's slave.

I think this might be how Tolkien gets them to 'work' as an enemy force. Yes, they are a bit rubbish compared to ruthless hyper-intelligent enemies like Daleks and Ubermenschen like Cybermen, but they are almost shadow selves of humanity, what we can be if we allow our 'masters' to determine our fates. Maybe this is what makes them so scary - are they repulsive as they are almost-but-not-quite-human, and a reminder of what might be? And also repulsive because we cannot reconcile feeling sorry for their fates at the same time as not wanting them to exist?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Never Let Me Go deals with cloned people raised for the sole purpose of donating their organs (this won't spoil the plot for you, do not worry!). As you read the novel you notice that there are lots of cliches used in the voice of the narrator and as it moves on you realise why, and that is these people have been raised to have limited expectations, focussed on the job they are destined to do, to be harvested - the limited language reflects the limited expectations. Nobody rebels, though they have small hopes in their limited way, they even hurry more quickly along the path to being harvested. They have their purpose and (maddeningly to the reader) seem to accept it.

Although they are not harvested, this sounds a bit like the future humans trapped within the caste system of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (genetically bred and raised from birth to be in on one of three levels of workers).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Orcs have had their 'humanity' stripped away and are utilitarian beings bred and raised for a purpose (I'm shuddering to think now of the millions of real children being 'educated' to become the obedient desk jockeys and consumers of the future....). I feel sorry for them at the same time as feeling a wee bit superior because I wasn't just bred to be some Dark Lord's slave.

I think this might be how Tolkien gets them to 'work' as an enemy force. Yes, they are a bit rubbish compared to ruthless hyper-intelligent enemies like Daleks and Ubermenschen like Cybermen, but they are almost shadow selves of humanity, what we can be if we allow our 'masters' to determine our fates. Maybe this is what makes them so scary - are they repulsive as they are almost-but-not-quite-human, and a reminder of what might be? And also repulsive because we cannot reconcile feeling sorry for their fates at the same time as not wanting them to exist?

The scenario is certainly possible within the framework of humanity, and without any exotic genetic manipulation. People generally have a flock or mob mentality in any case. How else could one explain how easily simple Nazi soldiers could so easily work within the framework of the Final Solution, day in and day out working among the incinerators? Or Japanese suicide bombers (or the Al Queda suicide bombers, or Republicans who still maintain that Bush is a good president, etc.).

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Although they are not harvested, this sounds a bit like the future humans trapped within the caste system of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (genetically bred and raised from birth to be in on one of three levels of workers).

That's a huge favourite of mine. In contrast, the events in this novel seem to be set in near contemporary England. Little detail is given of how they come into being, except dark hints at things far more unpleasant than what we see in the novel. It's well worth reading - difficult to initially get into the rhythm of the narrator's voice though as she intentionally speaks in cliches. The banality of her tone is part of the horror of it...

The scenario is certainly possible within the framework of humanity, and without any exotic genetic manipulation. People generally have a flock or mob mentality in any case. How else could one explain how easily simple Nazi soldiers could so easily work within the framework of the Final Solution, day in and day out working among the incinerators? Or Japanese suicide bombers (or the Al Queda suicide bombers, or Republicans who still maintain that Bush is a good president, etc.).

People are easily persuaded. From reading how these characters accept their fate stoically, how some even hasten it, it's easy to see how just from the correct application of education a person can be made to accept almost anything. Rather than exploring the wilder edges of such 'science' as was available to him, maybe Morgoth simply raised his Orcs to think in a certain way?

As Tolkien says, there are Orcs around even today, people who have not necessarily been raised in the right way (or who have been raised in the wrong way, seeing as there may not be a 'right' way but there are certainly 'wrong' ways). Or maybe it's going too far to say Orcs were more a state of mind in Middle-earth However, rather than thinking of Orcs as naturally 'bad to the bone', it is actually more frightening to think of them as having been raised to be blood thirsty and vicious, brought up in a culture which demanded that of them. It makes them a more satisfying enemy than mere 'McEeeevil' stereotypes, to see them as humanity's dark side.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

People are easily persuaded. From reading how these characters accept their fate stoically, how some even hasten it, it's easy to see how just from the correct application of education a person can be made to accept almost anything. Rather than exploring the wilder edges of such 'science' as was available to him, maybe Morgoth simply raised his Orcs to think in a certain way?

The "Cult" of Morgoth, of Melkor as a divinity to be worshipped, was something Tolkien toyed with throughout the Silmarillion and beyond. It was ressurrected by Sauron in Numenor, and then Tolkien attempted to revive it in his aborted 4th Age tale. Considering Morgoth's "Ring" was Arda itself, perhaps he exercised his malign influence over the Orcs from the...ummm...ground up, a sort of combination of John Locke's Tabula Rasa, Pavlovian psychology and Mendelian crossbreeding. The admixture was then heavily dosed with religious fervor (after all, religious fanaticism is the incubator for atrocity), for it certainly seemed that vain Morgoth, like any despotic demagogue, relished the worshipfulness of his subjects. The Orcs, therefore, had no chance or inclination to be anything but what they were, given both the societal pressure and mores (if Orcs could be said to have mores), and monstrous influence of divine Morgoth exerting immense pressure through his Ring (ie., Arda).

Interestingly, Sauron was not able to exert the same power over Orcs with his Ring. There is the instance of Shagrat and Gorbag speaking what amounts to heresy against their superiors, and planning their own little soiree without Sauron's control; also, the orcs of Moria had a history of crowning their own king (Azog and Bolg), which seems to be contrary to Orcs being bound directly to the Dark Lord. They even managed their own wars without the seeming direct influence of Saurons (Orcs and Dwarves, and the Battle of Five Armies). Perhaps this was due to Gundabad and Moria being further from Mordor, and the power exerted by Sauron's Ring grew less over considerable distance (unlike Morgoth, whose power corrupted the very earth).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As Tolkien says, there are Orcs around even today, people who have not necessarily been raised in the right way (or who have been raised in the wrong way, seeing as there may not be a 'right' way but there are certainly 'wrong' ways). Or maybe it's going too far to say Orcs were more a state of mind in Middle-earth However, rather than thinking of Orcs as naturally 'bad to the bone', it is actually more frightening to think of them as having been raised to be blood thirsty and vicious, brought up in a culture which demanded that of them. It makes them a more satisfying enemy than mere 'McEeeevil' stereotypes, to see them as humanity's dark side.

Well, there are 'real history' examples of this type of brutal behavior being at least attempted to be bred into a society, and what must be remembered is that in both the cases of Morgoth and Sauron we are speaking in terms of immortals who could carry out such breeding programs over millenia (unlike the abbreviated attempts of Man, which only last a relatively short time). Give Hitler a few thousand years to develop a blonde, blue-eyed master race, and the results would be horrifying.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly, Sauron was not able to exert the same power over Orcs with his Ring. There is the instance of Shagrat and Gorbag speaking what amounts to heresy against their superiors, and planning their own little soiree without Sauron's control; also, the orcs of Moria had a history of crowning their own king (Azog and Bolg), which seems to be contrary to Orcs being bound directly to the Dark Lord. They even managed their own wars without the seeming direct influence of Saurons (Orcs and Dwarves, and the Battle of Five Armies). Perhaps this was due to Gundabad and Moria being further from Mordor, and the power exerted by Sauron's Ring grew less over considerable distance (unlike Morgoth, whose power corrupted the very earth).

Distance probably has much to do with it; also, I imagine that Shagrat and Gorbag's insubordinate attitudes would have been impossible had Sauron actually been in possession of the Ring at that time. His power over his subjects was imcomplete without it.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

However, rather than thinking of Orcs as naturally 'bad to the bone', it is actually more frightening to think of them as having been raised to be blood thirsty and vicious, brought up in a culture which demanded that of them. It makes them a more satisfying enemy than mere 'McEeeevil' stereotypes, to see them as humanity's dark side.

Yep, that's how I see the Orcs as well and I believe I expressed that (or perhaps only implied it) earlier on this thread. As for 'humanity's dark side' I certainly assign the flock mentality you've talked about to it, at least the dark aspects that so often come to light; the few examples that have been mentioned here are just page one of a long. long book or horrors. The bright side of humanity is that once in a while we manage to rise above it, despite overwhelming odds. I'd like to think that eventually even the Orcs did. But then they are no longer Orcs, as I believe Orcness is mainly a state of mind for Tolkien, given his talk about modern day Orcs. An Orc reformed is no longer an Orc.

[Lalwendë]

You know what? I'm sure that the plug-ugly Orcs we saw in the films have made us all think that Orcs resembled re-animated corpses or something, when they were probably just a bit ugly. I must look this up and see what I think...

Because it's something on the inside of an Orc that makes them nasty.

Originally Posted by Skip

The bright side of humanity is that once in a while we manage to rise above it, despite overwhelming odds. I'd like to think that eventually even the Orcs did. But then they are no longer Orcs, as I believe Orcness is mainly a state of mind for Tolkien, given his talk about modern day Orcs. An Orc reformed is no longer an Orc.

And they must have been able to do this or otherwise Tolkien would not have mentioned the possibility of redemption for them. So they had the chance of free will. The question is how much of the urge to seek freedom had been bred out of them in their raising and in their culture.

I also wonder whether a redeemed Orc might look quite so ugly? It's not easy to imagine one of PJ's re-animated corpse zombie Orcs being redeemed and sitting in Ithilien pressing flowers but it might not be so unimaginable if that Orc wasn't such a pig, eh?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly, Sauron was not able to exert the same power over Orcs with his Ring. There is the instance of Shagrat and Gorbag speaking what amounts to heresy against their superiors, and planning their own little soiree without Sauron's control; also, the orcs of Moria had a history of crowning their own king (Azog and Bolg), which seems to be contrary to Orcs being bound directly to the Dark Lord. They even managed their own wars without the seeming direct influence of Saurons (Orcs and Dwarves, and the Battle of Five Armies). Perhaps this was due to Gundabad and Moria being further from Mordor, and the power exerted by Sauron's Ring grew less over considerable distance (unlike Morgoth, whose power corrupted the very earth).

Wasn't much of that period a time when Sauron had lost much of his power? He only came to Dol Guldur 1,000 years into the third age, and back to Mordor much later than that. I think maybe that the loss of Sauron's Ring meant he had to spend much longer in marshalling his forces and extending his influence before he could once more assault the West. Contrast that with the speed with which he must have acted to marshall his troops between the fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance, a time when he was in possession of the Ring.

I reckon Orcs would have taken the chance to run amok (as it might have seen from Sauron's point of view) during that period, be independent, even form an Orcish monarchy in Moria.

A people who had been born and brought up to act in a certain way might find it very hard or even impossible to shake off the yoke that Morgoth had placed on them. Odd cultural traditions persist in the real world for years after they have ceased to serve any useful purpose, such as foot binding, or even the wearing of ties.

I'd like to explore more of these ideas about a 'Cult of Morgoth' though, might be a good thread at some time soon...