The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-18-2008, 02:19 PM   #1
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
It is hard to imagine that Sauron hadn't figured it out that at least Galadriel had an Elven Ring. He wasn't that stupid - and the choice was so obvious. He knew her personally (as Annatar), he knew Celebrimbor - how could the head of the Mirdain not give a Ring to Galadriel?

Then Lorien, with its closely guarded borders and its magic fences. I guess Amroth's realm (before Galadriel came there) had nothing of the kind. Must be quite obvious that Galadriel had a Ring.
Actually, not! It may seem funny, but it is quite precisely stated in FotR that Sauron did NOT know:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel
Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.
"Yes," she said, divining his thought, "it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye.
(...)He suspects, but he does not know – not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy."
Quite plain. Strange perhaps, but it was so. Well, why not? Galadriel was a Noldo, and there was Celeborn too, who knows what may have protected Lórien - not necessarily the Elven magic, eh? Elrond, Círdan, Glorfindel... Sauron had no idea what Elven lords and hidden realms may actually lie west of Misty Mountains. He was quite uninformed when it came to things like Isildur's heir as well. So why not the Elven Ringbearers?

When it comes to Saruman, then I am quite inclined to think he knew - but then, perhaps not? What is clear is that the Ringbearers didn't talk openly about their Rings with anybody, so no things like "ah, he knew because they were on the same Council" will hold. He figured out about Gandalf, though, so it is possible he may have learned about Galadriel - but then, not sure if "learned" was possible there until he would actually get a hold of the Ring itself. So, he may have "suspected", like Sauron, but not be 100% sure.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 07:09 PM   #2
Gordis
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
Gordis is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel
He suspects, but he does not know – not yet.
Underestimation of the Enemy, my precious... Ahh.. this arrogant Glad...
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2008, 02:23 PM   #3
Elmo
Pittodrie Poltergeist
 
Elmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
Elmo has just left Hobbiton.
Well he'd know if Frodo blurted it out to an orc or Gandalf sang about the wrong thing surely. Aragorn scolded Frodo about talking about the ring outside Lorien didn't he?
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.
Elmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2008, 06:28 AM   #4
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Tolkien

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
Well he'd know if Frodo blurted it out to an orc or Gandalf sang about the wrong thing surely. Aragorn scolded Frodo about talking about the ring outside Lorien didn't he?
Yes, that's true. Although Aragorn maybe was a little more careful, you know, being too much of a "simple man" (meaning in contrary to the really Wise, like Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond...). I think in Aragorn's case it may have been really closer to "simple man's superstition" - just because he heard from Gandalf and others, rather than the thing proved by his own rational reflection, if you know what I mean? "It is taboo to speak about the Rings aloud," but why in particular, few people actually ever thought about that.

Anyway, I don't think one Orc knowing about Galadriel's Ring this way would help. You see, desinformation is always a threat, and also verified sources are necessary. If an Orc came to Sauron, saying: "I heard a hobbit saying that Galadriel has an Elven Ring," would he take it as a proof? Hardly. Of course he presumed already the possibility, but this thing does not help him at all. In the best case, he would at least go and catch the Hobbit. And when interrogating him, as a (reputedly) first-hand witness, he could ask some things to verify, like "what stone did it have", "what was inscribed on the ring" etc. Sauron, like the Ring-loremaster, could then perhaps have some more evidence. But still, I cannot think now, for myself, about any thing that I would consider proving 100% that Galadriel is the one having the Ring - except for meeting her in person. This is perhaps why Sauron did not know. It would have to be, possibly, some "high divination magic" - like, I could imagine something like a special Mirror of Galadriel, if it was possible to attune it the right way, you could let's say see in it somebody wearing a Ring of Power, and the Ring would shine on its finger (so the Mirror would bring your attention to it). But it was hard to have such thing in M-E, and the Rings and similar things were usually capable of rather "hiding" themselves from the sight of the observer.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:20 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.