Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Nogrod]

In the earlier game there were four independent pairs of lovers (werecats, werebirds etc...). In one game - possibly it was the Hoy Brasil - there were wolves as normal but they all had secret lovers behind the others' backs (so in the end all the wolves were playing for themselves even if they posed as friends to each other).

We have a host of possibilities then.

But one thing we should remember is that whatever the case this is a lovers game and in those two are always interconnected. So more than normal, the lovers will defend each other if it looks like it the other one is going to get lynched.

So far I have seen Kitanna defend Mac twice. Mac has been under pressure and Kitanna has really not stated any more elaborated reasons for her backing of him.

Other defendings have been more vague up till now, but I need to look at it again.

And I have some other suggestions as well but I'll post this first not to write a novel out of this first one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

This comment of Mac's doesn't sit right with me and makes me more inclined to vote for him instead. It's wolfish.
However, you can see my points against Rikae (added to a general bad feeling) in some earlier post I won't bother to find for you myself now.

Unnecessarily getting yourself provoked, I'd think... though of course nothing against your intentions to vote Mac.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So far I have seen Kitanna defend Mac twice. Mac has been under pressure and Kitanna has really not stated any more elaborated reasons for her backing of him.

Okay, now I will once again sound like repeating something, but I have thought of that too. I was not only sure if it is not just me making up things. Apparently I am not the only one to whom that idea occured: that Kitanna's choice to go after Rikae (and to vote her, especially timed so, when the option to vote either Rikae or Mac was hanging in the air for some people) and her comments about Mac seeming innocent which are not bringing him into that much spotlight but defending him still, can be more than just sideway comments. One more reason to lynch Mac, to find out if she by chance does not die, too... (now I must be sounding rather nasty, but that's the way it goes.)

EDIT: x-ed since the Nog I quoted

[Nogrod]

Okay from the beginning onwards then...

Sally looks from the beginning a bit too, how should one call it, up to the real thing? I mean maybe I'm just a paranoid but this really made me worried as Sally's second post - after a comforting nonsense-babble of her first post:

Originally Posted by Sally

I'm fairly optimistic about toDay actually. Like a couple others have said, our chances of finding a baddie aren't too shabby. And two for the price of one always makes me happy.

The problem is that once night hits a big chunk of this village is going the way of the dodo, so we best hope to indeed get baddie(s) today so they can't kill off so many in the Night.

I mean all of this is right and straight. But it's Sally saying this! Somehow the general attitude looks like it betrays Sally is not her normal self but tries something she isn't.


Also I'm a bit weary of Fea as well. Not because she brings up the rule-discussion but because she acts like a helpful and reasonable villager. Now to my experience she likes to toy around when she has nothing more interesting to do to keep her interested in the game. Now she has been ashtonishingly active for her on Day1 and soo sensible! It just cries evil to me. My only doubt is would she be that readable and is it only a change of tactics?


And to add my two cents to the discussion about the relative profit of voting the quiet ones / submarines toDay. I'm absolutely for it!

Normally we always risk just getting our numbers down by one but in this one we have a chance of bringing down the real player (however the roles are spread between them) who's tied with the submarine if we hit.

Okay. Need to take a short break. Back soon...


EDIT: X'd from my last one onwards...

[Macalaure]

I just skimmed the entire thread again to find the post in which Legate gives his reasons to suspect me as strongly as he does. I did not find it. Would you help me out, Legate? Either I completely overlooked it (I really hope I didn't - that'd be embarrassing), or I finally have a valid reason to suspect you.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

My only doubt is would she be that readable and is it only a change of tactics?

A couple responses to this: the last few games I've played in, I've been absolutely swamped with school work and the deadlines were at absolutely horrid times for me. In this game, I'm awake for all but a couple hours of the day. I mean, I'm asleep for the first few hours and maybe for the last one or two, but the midsection? For the first time in ages, game time occurs when I'm wide awake and not busy. Also, midterms have passed and I'm in the lazy spot before finals become a legitimate concern. I've literally finished all the reading homework assigned for the rest of the semester for one of my classes, I'm for once that far ahead. My term paper for another class? Practically written already. I seriously have nothing better to do.

I was also cracked out on caffeine for most of today, thus leading me to not only post a lot but to start a new painting, write a story, do reading homework, clean and organize my room--

Yeah. Anyway. Caffeine + good deadline - scary schoolwork = more involved player.

Besides- I'm fascinated by Di's manipulation of us all. It reminds me of a game I'd mod. And we all know I'm interested in myself more than I'm interested in most others...

[Nogrod]

Just adding to my comments about Fea in light of her latest one...

First I thought it looked liked her becoming more to her normal self but then this last one kind of caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Fea

Sorry, stupid question: Lovers know each others' identities, right? They're not fumbling in the dark hoping they don't accidentally kill their counterpart?

She has played if not more games than I have but definitively she's been around for a longer period. But I've played a quite a few games myself as well, also with lovers, but I don't recall a game were the lovers would be blind to each other (I may be wrong though and wish to be corrected in that case). And if - and when - I'm right I'm just wondering what was that remark of Fea for as she should know it? To give the impression she is not one of any of the pairs because of her total ignorance over the basic rule? Somehow I can't bring myself to fully support even that conclusion... at least yet.

Of course Di said we will not know how the dynamics of the game will work and that is true. She might have come up with an idea about blind lovers... or then my memory or experience have just failed me.

EDIT: X'd from Fea onwards. Good to hear what you say about your energies!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

She has played if not more games than I have but definitively she's been around for a longer period. But I've played a quite a few games myself as well, also with lovers, but I don't recall a game were the lovers would be blind to each other (I may be wrong though and wish to be corrected in that case).

I've played in a lot of games, but you may have not noticed that I consign myself to 'old school' games with just wolves, a seer, and maybe a ranger or something. I hate the confusion. I've never played a lovers game before, hence my apparent idiocy.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I've played a quite a few games myself as well, also with lovers, but I don't recall a game were the lovers would be blind to each other

They wouldn't really be lovers then, would they?
More a sort of secret admirer.

edit: x-ed since Fea #128

[Thinlómien]

Okay, maybe I'm paranoidly self-centered, but I don't like Mac's suspicion of me because it seems so... easy. He often suspects me, and he's generally been quite good at reading me. This time, he jumps on me all too easily. It looks like an evil Mac who has found a good culprit - someone he often suspects (won't raise eyebrows) and someone he is reputedly rather good at reading (might persuade people to agree with him).

There have been interesting points against Groin and Kitanna. I'm inclined to agree but I'd rather reread and see for myself. The only problem is that it's rather late here...

I find it fascinating that first there's this wave of votes and suspicion against Rikae, and then there comes a huge wave of defending her. Makes me raise my eyebrows.

Originally Posted by Mac

I'm not comfortable with the general focus of suspicions at the moment (almost exclusively me, Rikae, Aganzir, and Lommy). Too many people got by without anybody noticing. Please, have a closer look at things each of you. There's an incredible number of submarines right now.

Ooh Mac says something I totally agree with!

Originally Posted by Greenie

Let's see... How about electromagnetic wave equations?

Wikipedia says: "The electromagnetic wave equation is a second-order partial differential equation that describes the propagation of electromagnetic waves through a medium or in a vacuum." and I can support this view 100%.

I'm entertaining myself with the thought of Mac and Agan being lovers...

Lastly, I don't like the fact that I suspect Mac and Rikae probably the most at the moment. I haven't played with them for ages and I love playing with them so I don't really want to see them go early... *grumblegrumblegrumble*


edit: xed with Agan's #125 and everything after that...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Lastly, I don't like the fact that I suspect Mac and Rikae probably the most at the moment. I haven't played with them for ages and I love playing with them so I don't really want to see them go early

I definitely agree with you there... even if you are suspicious (and silly)

[Eönwë]

Ok, let's do votes (not many, but...):

Eomer: Rikae
Kitanna: Rikae (2)
Greenie: Groin

I think that's it. It just helps for me to see them all in one place.

[Eönwë]

I should probably sleep, but I haven't got any good ideas yet.

What makes it harder is I'm afraid to accuse a gifted.

[Nogrod]

I still think the basic idea fits and there are three or four lover-pairs of which one is an innocent and another is a baddie (whatever weresalmon or wererhinoceros they are). Di said there might be adjustments, but not that there would be a total overhaul of the lovers game.

That means many baddies (and innocents with evil intent) will attack other baddies (and innocents with evil intent) as they both don't know about each other and because they wish to do away with the others.

That's all for the village to gain!

And even if we go "Hoy Bresil" -style the individual wolves would easily go after the lover of a buddy-wolf. Although Di said there are no wolves in this game which kind of confirms to me the first interpretation...


So we must also read the Days after this one a bit differently than we are used to. The normal patterns do not hold. And hopefully the carnage of the next Night will actually teach us something about the build-up of this game.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

"Hoy Bresil" -style

Hoy Bresil...?

[Eönwë]

What worries me is that there is a significant number of evil people, and if they do know each other, as has been suggested, then they might be enough to shift the votes. Now that it scary.
If not, then we might get lots of votes for different people (the lovers probably trying not vote the same as their other half) on the later days. This could mean that potentially anyone could change the lynchee.

We shall see how it turns out.





And now Nogrod seems to talk sense...

[Lalaith]

Guys, don't you listen to your Moddess, or you trying to be deliberately confusing?

But I do feel moved to note that there are no "Werewolves." This is a "Lovers" game

That's what she says in the Admin thread. So, no, no Hoy Bresil.

Oh, and I am also now even more slightly suspicious of Fea's veracity, when I see that she is claiming to "hate confusion."

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Hoy Bresil...?

Hoy Bresil...?

Others: "Hoy Bresil...?"

Nogrod: It's only a model.

All: Shh!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Hoy Bresil...?

Gah...

Okay.

I'm a bit suspicious of Kit's way of defending Mac.

I'm a bit suspicious of Sally's way of posting.


That I have said already.


I'd like to add the following.

Eomer's self-assured vote-post (the only one he made) bothers me a lot.

With Groin I have a problem of separating a possible blatant chauvinism out from a possible mischievous link to Legate in this game.


Fea's explanations about more time in hand and playing the old-school games is enough for me, toDay at least. She has been very reasonable toDay.

The same (reasonableness) goes for Lalaith and in a way to Brinn as well.


So a slight reason to vote:
Kit
Sally
Eomer

A slight reason to vote for being a submarine, hopefully in a pair:
McCaber
Shasta
Gwath

Of the disputed talks of the town toDay I'd prefer leaving Agan and Rikae alive toDay.

I'm very much at loss with Mac, Legate and Lommy. There are reasons why I should vote each and every one of them but I'm afraid they all are not baddies - God forbid they are! But what I said about the probable dynamics of this game we'll be much more informed toMorrow - and I really think we should have those who talk around rather than those who give us no food for thought and only need to be guessed at in random...

That said, I'm going to sleep and will try to wake up early enough to read & vote in the morning before the deadline.

EDIT: X'd after Fea's Hoy Bresil remark...

[Macalaure]

I'm rapidly losing my ability to think, so here's the last of mine for today:

I don't know what to do with Legate, but I'll give him the benefit of doubt for today. He admitted that he had not much against me and reconsidered his suspicion, but only pedalled back a little bit. It sounded somewhat honest.

Originally Posted by Legate

You were just behaving all the time along the lines "I am your friend, people of Congo"

Eh?


I'm afraid Legate and Aganzir have to share my benefit of doubt. There seems to have been a bit of a mutual misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Are you sure you didn't criticize me just because I said I'd actually prefer voting you?

Umm, yes?

Originally Posted by Lommy

One more point against Mac?

I don't know. Is it? You found it, you should know...

...but you decided to give your point in the form of a rhetorical question, and I think that's a rather wolvish way to suspect someone.

I was likely going to vote for you before, and that little thing just tipped the scales.

++Thinlómien


In the case I'm no longer alive tomorrow, look at the people flying under the radar more - especially Brinn and Eomer come to mind right now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

While that post of Groin's is suspicious, it doesn't sound so untypical to him that it would necessarily indicate guilt. Therefore at least I would rather vote someone I suspect more, and see what to do with Groin later when he has had a chance to post more.

Indeed, I'd wait for him to post more too, however, what I thought was of course that it would be typical of him, but that's exactly the point. I said "that's something which a WereGroin could do" - doing something that would go well with his general behavior, but simply using it to his advantage. Nevertheless, yes, probably better to let him post more and then see what to make out of it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I still think the basic idea fits and there are three or four lover-pairs of which one is an innocent and another is a baddie (whatever weresalmon or wererhinoceros they are). Di said there might be adjustments, but not that there would be a total overhaul of the lovers game.

That means many baddies (and innocents with evil intent) will attack other baddies (and innocents with evil intent) as they both don't know about each other and because they wish to do away with the others.

Hey, wait, wait, I didn't get it probably in that case. My original thought was that there were (at least in the previous game) simply four or how many pairs of lovers, but in fact, it was more like that they were (technically) four teams of wolves by two, whose fates were entwined. Because otherwise, it has no sense to say that one of the lovers is an ordo and the other is a baddie, since they both pick a kill, and kill somebody, not? Or how is that? I don't get it.

EDIT: x-ed since Eönwë before Lommy

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, I'd wait for him to post more too, however, what I thought was of course that it would be typical of him, but that's exactly the point.

Yes, last time we (well not me) killed him before he even had a chance to say anything. At least let him defend himself.

Then again, we only account for the first half of toDay. We (or at least I) won't be able to finalise anything

[Lalaith]

Ok, my Downs clock right now says 10.29pm. How long til deadline? I'm confused.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hey, wait, wait, I didn't get it probably in that case. My original thought was that there were (at least in the previous game) simply four or how many pairs of lovers, but in fact, it was more like that they were (technically) four teams of wolves by two, whose fates were entwined. Because otherwise, it has no sense to say that one of the lovers is an ordo and the other is a baddie, since they both pick a kill, and kill somebody, not? Or how is that? I don't get it.

You're right that technically they are four duettos of baddies. But remember that there is a difference in calling the other one innocent as s/he's the one the possible seer sees as an innocent.

Now was this a tactical trick by Legate or was he just innocently confused?

EDIT: X'd from Lalaith onwards...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You're right that technically they are four duettos of baddies. But remember that there is a difference in calling the other one innocent as s/he's the one the possible seer sees as an innocent.

Aaah yes, okay, that makes sense then. But the question is: do we actually even have a Seer? I would presume so, but not much of a chance for him to survive for long, I'd say...

Anyway, in general, my thoughts on people:

Aganzir an ordo: vocal, hard-working, making sense. No problem with her.
Brinniel radaaaar!
Eomer he seems like an okay guy. If it's just a mask of Superman under which there is in fact a... Batman... is hard to say.
Eönwë hard to say
Fea makes sense, innocentish
Gollum nuzzing
Greenie seems innocent, and as far as I remember evil Greenies, she does not look like one.
Groin besides not having much of his own opinion to present, and that thing we mentioned, we'll see
Gwath ...
Kitanna I don't like her somewhat; there is this Mac-defense thing, at moments she has been better, but sometimes again not.
Lalaith nuzzing
Lommy slightly suspicious
Mac I am not really sure now, but I am still keeping an eye on him
McCaber ...
Nogrod I am not really sure, but he looks like usual ordo-ish Nogrod, except for some moments, when he seems a bit off-track to me. But nothing big in particular.
Rikae seems more innocentish to me than not
Sally could be either
Shasta ...

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So far I have seen Kitanna defend Mac twice. Mac has been under pressure and Kitanna has really not stated any more elaborated reasons for her backing of him.

I haven't read a whole lot, just got home, but I saw this and thought I'd respond while I still have a chance. I just don't feel Mac is all that suspicious. I didn't see anything in his posts that pointed to him being a werelover, though depending on what has happened in the posts since I was on last could shift my opinion.