Elwe Singollo

[Morthoron]

Thingol suffers from the same overweaning pride that affected many 1st Age Elves (take your pick, Feanor, Celegorm, Caranthir, Turgon, Eol, et al.). These were not sweet Legolas Mary-Sue Elves, but Eldar or First Born who had been slicing up Orcs (and sometimes other Elves) for a few centuries. They were haughty because they were indeed superior and they knew it

Take Thingol, for instance. He is born in Cuivienen before the sun or moon are even in orbit, he is chosen to be spokesman of his clan, he travels to Valinor, returns to become king of the Sindar in the great realm of Doriath, marries Melian the Maia, and his child is the most beautiful creature in all creation. Think about it, how do you even dare speak to someone like that if you are a mere mortal? I am not saying ol' Thingol didn't need a major attitude adjustment, but you have to take his actions into context.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally Posted by sleepless_elf

are you doing a thesis on sil?

Yes. Specifically, the idea of mythology versus legend versus history in the Silm.

Originally Posted by skip spence

To me it's Beren who is the real fool here dragging those he loves out on a hopeless quest. If you want to die for your lover don't take innocent people with you. Later Luthien says, 'forget about the Silmaril and we'll live together in the Woods', but oh no, Beren rather drags her into the deepest pits of Angband than retract his stubborn and hasty promise, one which already has been the death of Finrod Felagund and all his companions. What a selfish bastard he is! And Thingol is made out to be the fool. Jeez!

Can't really disagree with that, I guess. It does seem pretty much like the most hopeless mission ever given to anyone, and Beren had to have known it. At the same time, though... Thingol himself was practically ensnared by Melian, back during the Great Journey, and could we expect her daughter to be any less entrancing? (Meh. That wasn't said very well.)

I honestly can't remember the first point at which Thingol learns about the Oath of Feanor and the Kinslaying. Because if he knew about that oath, why on earth would he have had Beren go after the Silmaril? The Silm specifically states that when he pronounced Beren's mission, Thingol "wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared in the curse of Mandos." And his possession of the Silmaril, later on (which killed him), when he certainly knows about the oath, just seems petty and greedy, to me.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Take Thingol, for instance. He is born in Cuivienen before the sun or moon are even in orbit, he is chosen to be spokesman of his clan, he travels to Valinor, returns to become king of the Sindar in the great realm of Doriath, marries Melian the Maia, and his child is the most beautiful creature in all creation. Think about it, how do you even dare speak to someone like that if you are a mere mortal? I am not saying ol' Thingol didn't need a major attitude adjustment, but you have to take his actions into context.

This is very true. Even Elrond, who comes across as quite stern in LotR, isn't insulted when Bilbo writes the poem about Earendil in Rivendell. It really is quite cheeky, when you think about it... but Elrond is clearly a lot more patient than Thingol would have been!

My only argument: in my mind, Thingol is just as far below Melian as Beren is below Luthien. Beren is described as the greatest Man who ever walked in Middlearth, and Thingol as the greatest Elf, save perhaps Feanor: that description is somewhere, skip spence, I know what you're referring to but can't find it.
Yet while he scorns Beren's love for his daughter, many eons before, Thingol thought nothing of abandoning the entire host of the Teleri to romp in Doriath with Melian. (Okay, so that's a bit vulgar: they actually just stood there for a very long time with the stars wheeling overhead, then settled in Doriath.) He quite literally left the Teleri to his brother, and many of them missed the ships going to Valinor as they continued to search for him! That, to me, is one of his most inexcusable actions, regardless of whether or not it was the will of the Valar for them to wed and protect Doriath. Mmphm.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

Yet while he scorns Beren's love for his daughter, many eons before, Thingol thought nothing of abandoning the entire host of the Teleri to romp in Doriath with Melian. (Okay, so that's a bit vulgar: they actually just stood there for a very long time with the stars wheeling overhead, then settled in Doriath.) He quite literally left the Teleri to his brother, and many of them missed the ships going to Valinor as they continued to search for him! That, to me, is one of his most inexcusable actions, regardless of whether or not it was the will of the Valar for them to wed and protect Doriath. Mmphm.

But that is Fate or whatever you might call it, is it not? I think that in Arda, everybody bows down to Fate. Even Morgy. Even Melian when Beren came in the picture.

I don't think it was the will of the Valar that Melian left to wed Thingol. She left the Gardens of Lorien without any adios:

Originally Posted by BoLT, The Tale of Tinuviel

Indeed she was a sprite that, escaping from Lorien's gardens before even Kor was built, wandered in the wild places of the world in every lonely wood.

Whatever could a poor Elf do to resist the charms of such a sprite, even if he did see the Light of the Trees prior to meeting her? All other loyalties forgotten for a great love, this is a recurrent theme in JRRT. Thingol and Melian. Beren and Luthien. Beren and Felagund. And arguably, Aldarion and the Sea. The list goes on.

[Inziladun]

Lindale:

Whatever could a poor Elf do to resist the charms of such a sprite, even if he did see the Light of the Trees prior to meeting her? All other loyalties forgotten for a great love, this is a recurrent theme in JRRT. Thingol and Melian. Beren and Luthien. Beren and Felagund. And arguably, Aldarion and the Sea. The list goes on.

I too can't really criticize Thingol for his abandonment of the Teleri. Doesn't it specifically describe him in The Silmarillion as being "enchanted" by Melian? I don't think he had any will left in the matter. If not for her, Thingol would almost surely have returned to the West, leading his people. I would argue against Aldarion's inclusion in your examples, though.

skip spence:

I'm willing to defend him partially in the treatment of Beren too. Look at it from Thingol's perspective. Here comes this ragged but prideful Man, knowing next to nothing about the world and it's secrets; a Man who've walked the earth just a few fleeting, sorrowful moments and is soon to depart again (unlike Luthien who will remain) yet lays claim to his own daughter with haughty words.

I would have thought Thingol might have some special understanding of being under the spell of a love that could not be denied. As Morthoron mentioned, it seems pride was the real reason for his treatment of Beren, "baseborn mortal" and such.

skip spence:

Later Luthien says, 'forget about the Silmaril and we'll live together in the Woods', but oh no, Beren rather drags her into the deepest pits of Angband than retracts his stubborn and hasty promise, one which already has been the death of Finrod Felagund and all his companions. What a selfish bastard he is! And Thingol is made out to be the fool. Jeez!

I know this isn't really Beren we're discussing here, but he went to such lengths to fulfill Thingol's conditions because: 1. Obeying the wishes of the potential bride's father in such matters was apparently the way things were done in that time, and 2. Beren did not desire her to live such a rustic and rude existence, wishing her to have the station that befitted her. Aragorn, much later, fulfilled his own bride's father's prerequisites for marriage for, I think, the same reasons.