Humility & Heroes

[Nogrod]

First this humility reminds me of Christianity. Like the Christ, one should be humble (even if I'm not sure He was that humble all the time...). I have no idea how it is in King James or any other English translation but freely translated the Book says "The ones who uplift themselves will be downgraded - and the ones who downgrade themselves will be uplifted" (in Finnish translation they use the same words on both sides of the metaphor).

Secondly it might as well be linked to Tolkien's love of Kalevala and the Finnish folklore - and why not British modesty which is not too much unlike Finnish modesty. But talking about national myths, the Finns really think they are the most modest people in the world. (And how modest is that?)
*should we have a British-Finnish contest on which one is more modest?*

Surely Egill or Gunnar are not the most modest characters you can find, and neither is Wieland / Woland / Wayland / Völundur the smith or any of those ancient northern legends. Even Thor and Odin seem to be quite self-asserting - like King Arthur or Lancelot; or Roland or Siegfried to that matter. They are clearly pagan heroes even if the writers of their stories have instilled Christian features into their stories. Anyway, they have pride in what they do.

But the Finnish folklore is just filled with these ideas of being low key and not making a number of oneself (with the exception of Kullervo eg. Turín, and possibly Ilmarinen eg. the smith eg. the Silmaril-maker) even before the christendom arrived here.

So maybe Tolkien was looking at that one genuine principle that would bring together the Christ-myth (Jewish) with the ancient stories (Finnish) that fit his view of the genuine idea of a good (British) common folk? And the utmost bravery of those we in Finland call the "silent of the earth"...

[The Might]

Awesome, post davem, kudos!

A really interesting idea with this transition between the two worlds and it explains much of what we see happening in LotR.
And yes, of course since Tolkien based so much on folklore it makes perfect sense to give his heroes the same qualities as those of fairytale ones.

I find it interesting actually that Hobbits were so much more humble due to their background and perhaps also due to their closeness to nature and living things. After all, they had in their past, especially during the long journey from the east, endured many hardships as well.

My idea is that either they stayed as humble the whole time, which makes them so special in M-e.

Men on the other hand all had to endure much, the perpetual return of evil in the east, wars, plagues, etc. and this decreased their trust in others and also their humility. They had to stand up more often for themselves, received no help from the outside, and so felt they are the ones that have to get the credit.

[Andsigil]

Lalwendë,

I suppose I don't see the humility of Aragorn as easily as you do. He always seemed proud and rather stately to me, especially when he threatened mayhem to the Rohirrim if they so much as looked at Anduril sideways.

Perhaps it's a relative thing and his humility is great for one of royal blood (as opposed to more common folk).

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Lalwendë,

I suppose I don't see the humility of Aragorn as easily as you do. He always seemed proud and rather stately to me, especially when he threatened mayhem to the Rohirrim if they so much as looked at Anduril sideways.

Perhaps it's a relative thing and his humility is great for one of royal blood (as opposed to more common folk).

Really? That's interesting as everyone I speak to has a different perception of Aragorn, some find him pious, others find him humble. I think he does have a tendency to be proud, being who he is, but we can see it shaken out of him somewhat when Gandalf tells him it is disrespectful to take weapons into Meduseld and eventually he becomes a marvellous leader who does not expect loyalty from the Men of Gondor but who earns it and will only accept his Kingship by consensus.

Something else I was thinking about following on from what davem says was whether different types of people are humble in different ways. The Hobbits of course are a humble people in comparison to the greater Men and Elves of Middle-earth, but what about people like Faramir, Galadriel, Aragorn etc? They are not humble people by nature, do they have to learn humility or is it a character trait? Certainly by the end of the books we see our 'heroes' brought humble in attitude (and the end result is really what I am interested in), but are they all like that to begin with and what turns them?

Do we meet many 'humble' people in the Lord of the Rings aside from the Hobbits? Not many....

[Nogrod]

To me the story of Aragorn has always been the story of the poor boy from humble origins and with humble mind forced to show his qualities, forced to learn his stature, forced to take his place that is so unlike his own view of himself had been.

It's like this Sartrean/Nietzschean "become what you are!" - or the traditional "growing up" -story.

So to me Aragorn has always looked a bit reluctant to seize the power the fate has given him - and he only slowly realises that that is the case. And why is that? Because he has been brought up in humility. Take the people of Bree who thought him just plain weird but he didn't make a case out of it; he just silently left the mock behind - to guard the lives of those who scorned him... Well, that's what I'd call humility...

Let's not forget that he had done that for ages before the things started to roll forwards and we only see the part where he struggles to find his new identity as the story-told king of all men.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I've often thought that Aragorn could have been quite prideful and arrogant, if not for the fact that he "learned better" rather quickly. Remember how, when he was first told about his lineage, he felt quite puffed-up and self-important about it, until he met Arwen and suddenly felt small again. Somehow, he found a proper perspective about his own importance in the world as a whole. Being human, he will not be perfect, of course, but when compared to some of his contemporaries -- Denethor and Boromir come to mind -- he has a much more balanced sense of both pride and humility.

There's also the question of what Tolkien meant by "humble." Sometimes, I think the definition changes. At times, it refers to modesty and meekness, at other times about a more lowly status. The hobbits might be considered humble not because they lack arrogance and pride, but because they are a younger, less complex, more innocent society. They have had struggles to survive in their past, but they were usually against nature, not against legions of orcs and power-hungry Dark Lords. The cost of widsom all too often is the loss of innocence, which all the Shire lost to some degree when Saruman and his lackeys invaded it, but which Frodo lost more than any other, to the point that he no longer could remain a part of it. He had seen too much, endured too much, faced his own pride, failed, and was humbled -- what John Campbell might have called his heroic "descent into hell," a necessary part of his heroic journey to an eventual personal apotheosis.

Not all of Tolkien's heroes in LotR go through this journey, but at least a few do. Gandalf literally descends into hell with the Balrog, and to death, to achieve a rather literal apotheosis and rebirth by the will of Eru -- a thing which might not have come about if he hadn't willingly sacrificed himself and his own goals to save the quest, the success of which was paramount. Aragorn, prideful and stubborn before the doors of Meduseld, must later choose to take the paths of the dead and risk his own life in order to achieve a greater good which may not lead him to the throne, but is the only hope to keep Gondor alive until Frodo's quest can be achieved. He may arrive in Gondor with his standard flying and wearing the Elendilmir, but after this has the proper effect of putting fear and doubt into the enemy, he is much more humble in his demeanor, refusing to put himself forward as the king he has not yet truly earned the right to be.

I think I'm rambling, now. Sleep first, think about this some more later....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There's also the question of what Tolkien meant by "humble." Sometimes, I think the definition changes. At times, it refers to modesty and meekness, at other times about a more lowly status. The hobbits might be considered humble not because they lack arrogance and pride, but because they are a younger, less complex, more innocent society. They have had struggles to survive in their past, but they were usually against nature, not against legions of orcs and power-hungry Dark Lords. The cost of widsom all too often is the loss of innocence, which all the Shire lost to some degree when Saruman and his lackeys invaded it, but which Frodo lost more than any other, to the point that he no longer could remain a part of it. He had seen too much, endured too much, faced his own pride, failed, and was humbled -- what John Campbell might have called his heroic "descent into hell," a necessary part of his heroic journey to an eventual personal apotheosis.

That's probably quite fundamental to the topic, what Tolkien means by humble!

I think it does come in two ways:
1. Those who are by nature or status humble
2. Those who express and display humility

I think that the second category is particularly important as this is where Tolkien forces his good guys into humility as a requirement of their being 'good'. And that's where, I think, the notion of humility as a desirable character trait in a 'hero' is most important.

Frodo and the Hobbits of course are humble, they don't have to force themselves into humility because in comparison to those they meet along the way, they are at the bottom of the social heap. Not to say that they aren't tempted to 'big themselves up' of course (see Frodo's vision on Mount Doom and Sam's, when he briefly dons the Ring), but the greater people they meet, Kings, Princes, Captains etc, all must come to show their humility in the course of events.

In some cases, they must even humble themselves in order to achieve the things they are entitled to. Aragorn has to humble himself in order to be accepted as King, and Galadriel has to do so in order to be able to return to Valinor.