Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think perhaps that the use of the word "devices" should be considered. It doesn't necessarily mean a gadget or a weapon; it can mean a technique, means, or even a plan. As Saruman had most thoroughly studied the arts of the Enemy (possibly even having a sort of inside track on things because of their mutual origin as Maiar of Aule), the Council may have deferred to his wisdom in such matters and implemented his plan for a confrontation with "the Necromancer." It may or may not have included such things as his "blasting fire" (I tend to think that if it did, it was used minimally, since Dol Guldur does not appear to have suffered significant physical damage from the attack). If they came at Sauron with enough non-physical power to make him fear that they might actually succeed in overwhelming him and taking him prisoner, I doubt he'd have much compunction about deserting his minions and hieing himself back to the safety of his much greater stronghold in Mordor.

Just an early morning thought. Still haven't gotten to the books....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

the White Council's singular mission was to force Sauron to flee, and not to invest or besiege Amon Lanc.

That's for the second time. Stop that! It scares me always when I see it in the text...

The questions remain, if the White Council did indeed have an invasion force, why did they not topple the topless towers and lay bare the pits of Dol Guldur, and thus cleanse that loathsome place? Why leave such a scar on the land that years later Legolas and his kin would find it nearly unbearable to pass it by? Why not destroy it then and there so that it could not be remanned (or re-orced perhaps) with evil creatures, as it was during the War of the Ring? Rule number one in warfare regarding capturing an enemy stronghold is to either repopulate it with your own forces, or destroy it so it cannot be used again.

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think perhaps that the use of the word "devices" should be considered. It doesn't necessarily mean a gadget or a weapon; it can mean a technique, means, or even a plan.

Yes, that's exactly what I said in the post I linked above, too... the point about Dol Guldur not being actually destroyed would support a different means of driving Sauron away. However, it also does not rule out the blasting fire completely - as in Helm's Deep, they could have just blown up a bit of a wall to get inside (which was repaired later when Sauron re-occupied the place). But I find it unlikely also for the question how would the Elves look on such a "machine of terror" to be used.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Just *how* does Elrond maintain his Wise card? Wasn't he the one at the Council that whined about not unmaking Barad-dur and the Ring? Maybe he should address the Tower in his own back yard before talking about the one of Isildur's kin/ken. No wonder Boromir was so put out!

Yes, that's exactly what I said in the post I linked above, too... the point about Dol Guldur not being actually destroyed would support a different means of driving Sauron away. However, it also does not rule out the blasting fire completely - as in Helm's Deep, they could have just blown up a bit of a wall to get inside (which was repaired later when Sauron re-occupied the place). But I find it unlikely also for the question how would the Elves look on such a "machine of terror" to be used.

Can't be blasting fire, as it's not used again by the White. And one would think that Aragorn the Aged would have remembered/remarked how it was used to breach the walls of Dol Guldur when he sees it again at Helm's Deep.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

And one would think that Aragorn the Aged would have remembered/remarked how it was used to breach the walls of Dol Guldur when he sees it again at Helm's Deep.

I hope you are not suggesting that Aragorn was there in Dol Guldur. Putting aside that he never was there, he was ten years old when the attack took place...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I hope you are not suggesting that Aragorn was there in Dol Guldur. Putting aside that he never was there, he was ten years old when the attack took place...

Surely he attended the 'we sent Sauron running' ball and singsongfeast, or at least got the t-shirt.

My foster-father went to Dol Guldur and all I got was this T-shirt.

[Boromir88]

Can't be blasting fire, as it's not used again by the White. And one would think that Aragorn the Aged would have remembered/remarked how it was used to breach the walls of Dol Guldur when he sees it again at Helm's Deep.~alatar

Well I don't know if it necessarily has to be "blasting fire" Gandalf is talking about, it could just be some sort of fiery device like Sauron used against Gondor...I could be mistaken, as my memory is a bit vague, but isn't there something about "burning liquid" that Sauron uses?

Because while Gandalf says:

It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.

This could be a general statement of Gandalf saying Sauron was forced to flee, because of Saruman's devices. It doesn't necessarily mean Saruman physically encountered Sauron and drove him off with a special weapon. We know that's not Sauron's style of leading, he sits in the back (cozy in a nice, big tower):

Denethor laughed bitterly. "Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise,...~The Siege of Gondor

Also, Gandalf makes mention that his weapons would have possibly driven back the Nine...isn't fire one of their fears? Let's not forget in Unfinished Tales, when the Witch-King came asking for information, Saruman was able to turn him away and keep his true thoughts hidden (at least from the Wikki)...I don't remember if there's any mentioning of a weapon that he used other than his persuasive abilities though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I could be mistaken, as my memory is a bit vague, but isn't there something about "burning liquid" that Sauron uses?

That was Saruman, too. When the Ents attacked Isengard, huh, and now I don't know what the name of the Ent was in English, something with a beech tree though probably, was hit by this "liquid fire" and Merry or Pippin says that it was a horrible sight.

We know that's not Sauron's style of leading, he sits in the back (cozy in a nice, big tower):

Hey, that's a very good point - well thought!

Also, Gandalf makes mention that his weapons would have possibly driven back the Nine...isn't fire one of their fears? Let's not forget in Unfinished Tales, when the Witch-King came asking for information, Saruman was able to turn him away and keep his true thoughts hidden (at least from the Wikki)...I don't remember if there's any mentioning of a weapon that he used other than his persuasive abilities though.

No, nothing beside his voice and the things he does with it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's for the second time. Stop that! It scares me always when I see it in the text...

And yet, I've seen nothing you've offered thus far to refute it, save the same conjecture I am using; therefore, I have no inclination to 'stop it' (particularly since it irritates you so ). For instance....

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Hmmm...but why then did Galadriel deem it so important to throw down the towers of Dol Guldur after Sauron's demise? Likewise, Elessar had Minas Morgul utterly destroyed after Sauron and the WiKi were long gone. Why the necessity after the fact? The importance of such a demolition was just as crucial prior to Sauron's defeat, if not more so, don't you think?

Further back in M-e history, Utumno and Angband were both purposely destroyed in separate wars (not as systematically as one would like, of course, because Angband had to be reduced twice). But one would think a scholarly loremaster such as Elrond or a long-lived Noldo like Galadriel would insist on such destruction as a matter of course, based on previous experiences of their race, unless their primary concern was to drive Sauron off, as it would seem unlikely and naive if they believed he could actually be utterly destroyed, even with Saruman's shiny new devices. Therefore, it is evident to me the White Council did not have a legion of Elves storming the ramparts (the same mythical army that, of course, saved Helm's Deep).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

And yet, I've seen nothing you've offered thus far to refute it, save the same conjecture I am using; therefore, I have no inclination to 'stop it' (particularly since it irritates you so). For instance....

Hmmm...but why then did Galadriel deem it so important to throw down the towers of Dol Guldur after Sauron's demise? Likewise, Elessar had Minas Morgul utterly destroyed after Sauron and the WiKi were long gone. Why the necessity after the fact? The importance of such a demolition was just as crucial prior to Sauron's defeat, if not more so, don't you think?

Further back in M-e history, Utumno and Angband were both purposely destroyed in separate wars (not as systematically as one would like, of course, because Angband had to be reduced twice).

Yes: this is once again the very same point I meant with Dol Guldur! Utumno was destroyed, but the deepest pits of Angband were not; thus, the evil was allowed to remain there and multiply again, resp. wait for Morgoth's return. The same with Dol Guldur. The analogy is perfect. Mistakes, mistakes, mistakes, the typical mistakes going around all the time.

And as for the first question - why after: with Dol Guldur, Galadriel has been already warned by the past mistake, so she decided to "lay bare all pits", as it is written, and destroy the fortress in Southern Mirkwood - who knows, what if there remained a "Balrog" (whatever) hidden beneath it and after a few years in the Fourth Age, it returned? Or, such a fortress would have been tempting for some Fourth-Age-sorceror to take residence in. No, this place had to be cleansed, and also for the safety of the Elves (no more spiders!), and also so that they could return to Amon Lanc

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes: this is once again the very same point I meant with Dol Guldur! Utumno was destroyed, but the deepest pits of Angband were not; thus, the evil was allowed to remain there and multiply again, resp. wait for Morgoth's return. The same with Dol Guldur. The analogy is perfect. Mistakes, mistakes, mistakes, the typical mistakes going around all the time.

Yes, the deepest pits of Angband remained, but there was a concerted effort to destroy the edifice. The Valar didn't just leave without doing a cursory bit of demolition. The Valar's bad habit was doing everything half-assed.

Hmmm...and then there is Galadriel. She seems to have escaped the multitude of mistakes made by her more 'hasty' counterparts within the Noldor race: she spurns Feanor; she eschews the violence and murder rampant in the Kin Slaying, yet still follows her objective of finding greater realms to rule; she ingratiates herself to Melian and learns wisdom in Doriath when most other Noldor are forbidden to enter the Girdled Realm; she sees through Annatar's disguise and rejects him, whereas Celebrimbor greedily accepts the veiled Sauron; she welcomes Gandalf and wisely puts him ahead of Saruman in council; she rejects the Ring even when it is offered to her freely.

All this seeming wisdom, savvy and common sense, and yet she makes such a glaring error? And both Gandalf and Elrond with her on the White Council -- supposed wisdom personified in Middle-earth -- and not enough sense between them to destroy Dol Guldur when it has been overrun by an army?

As Shakespeare would say, 'Ah, there's the rub!' I reiterate, there was no army, Dol Guldur was not overrun and controlled by the White Council, and their only objective at the time was to destroy Sauron if they could, or at least drive him in any case. That being done, they did not have the force to destroy Amon Lanc, and they left. Only when Galadriel and Celeborn actually brought their army from Lorien was Galadriel able to destroy Dol Guldur.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, the deepest pits of Angband remained, but there was a concerted effort to destroy the edifice. The Valar didn't just leave without doing a cursory bit of demolition. The Valar's bad habit was doing everything half-assed.

Hmmm...and then there is Galadriel. She seems to have escaped the multitude of mistakes made by her more 'hasty' counterparts within the Noldor race: she spurns Feanor; she eschews the violence and murder rampant in the Kin Slaying, yet still follows her objective of finding greater realms to rule; she ingratiates herself to Melian and learns wisdom in Doriath when most other Noldor are forbidden to enter the Girdled Realm; she sees through Annatar's disguise and rejects him, whereas Celebrimbor greedily accepts the veiled Sauron; she welcomes Gandalf and wisely puts him ahead of Saruman in council; she rejects the Ring even when it is offered to her freely.

All this seeming wisdom, savvy and common sense, and yet she makes such a glaring error? And both Gandalf and Elrond with her on the White Council -- supposed wisdom personified in Middle-earth -- and not enough sense between them to destroy Dol Guldur when it has been overrun by an army?

To all this I say only: Yes, from my part, yes, not enough sense. Even Gandalf and Galadriel could not persuade the Council to attack Dol Guldur earlier, as we are reminded of (and the history would have taken a very different course). I can also imagine Gandalf was in a hurry to Erebor when the deed was done, Saruman did not perhaps get his hands dirty, and Galadriel - who knows. Why couldn't she just have "torn down its walls and laid bare its pits"? I am pretty sure even after the War of the Ring, she did it by herself, not with the help of Elven sappers and explosives. No, for some reason - we don't know why - she simply didn't do that even then. But this thing, for me, is not an evidence for whether the Council had or whether it had not any army with them there. So,

As Shakespeare would say, 'Ah, there's the rub!' I reiterate, there was no army, Dol Guldur was not overrun and controlled by the White Council

Certainly not controlled, that would be pretty overstretching it, but not destroyed either, right. It's a similar course of events as in Mordor's border forts, when "the evil crept out of Gorgoroth" and overtook the garrison of Narchost, Carchost and the Tower of Cirith Ungol - and later, Minas Morgul itself. (Only with the difference that I doubt there were any Elves left in Dol Guldur to guard it, that sounds pretty weird - just imagine it. The evil just returned into an empty fortress, which was left there.) But I believe, in contrary to you, that the Council HAD theoretically the power do destroy Dol Guldur, only they simply didn't do it. Or maybe they did not have the power right at the moment they came there (being exhausted from the battle, the wizards using all their spell slots... ), but they still had plenty time to do it "later", after everybody had time, but they simply, as it goes, procrastinated to the point that Sauron's forces actually returned.

Still, the point of it is: I don't see the non-destruction of Dol Guldur as an argument for the assumption that there was no army there. In all honesty, even a commando of a hundred Wood Elves would have a problem with destroying the walls of Dol Guldur - what would they do, shoot at the bricks with arrows?

[alatar]

Methinks that it was more like the oft-maligned Neville Chamberlain deal where the White Council came back with a promise from Sauron that he would pack up and go and then put the place up for sale or rent. The base master of lies probably got the Council on the hook for moving expenses.

Another one of Elrond's 'fruitless victories.'

However it happened, Gandalf still for a time believed that Sauron was driven out by Saruman (even though Sauron planned to leave anyway).