Education in Middle Earth

Originally Posted by Kitanna

A pie eating contest seems a more likely option than olympic games. Any sort of contest you'd find at a county fair, (cooking, livestock, vegetable contests), all are closer to a hobbit's taste than games of strength and will. They were simple folk and simple contests would have fit them well.

Olympic type games would have been better suited in the world of men. Archery, riding, etc. were already being taught to young men so contests like that make more sense in the world of Big People.

Hobbits had an excellent sense of direction and aim, so archery was not a problem for them to master. Hobbits (the lean ones) could also run at a good pace, almost to the level of Dwarves (excluding Bombur of course!), so they could make worthy sprinters. So on at least two fronts they could compete at a decent level in sports. But what of golf? The Hobbit did reference the subject.

[modoturan]

Well, thinking back to the passages that introduced the Mouth of Sauron, we see:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favor; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron....

Makes it sound like the Mouth of Sauron learned "sorcery" during his time at Barad-dûr.

Now there's an interesting thought: what kind of education do they give you at Mordor? Torture 101 with Professor Khamûl. Or Metallurgy 243: The Forging of Morgul Blades, with a mandatory lab component.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Hobbits had an excellent sense of direction and aim, so archery was not a problem for them to master. Hobbits (the lean ones, excluding Bombur of course!) could also run at a good pace, almost to the level of Dwarves, so they could make worthy sprinters. So on at least two fronts they could compete at a decent level in sports. But what of golf? The Hobbit did reference the subject.

But that doesn't mean competitions like that would be of great interest, not when their love of the earth was most important.

And Bombur was a dwarf, not a hobbit.

Now there's an interesting thought: what kind of education do they give you at Mordor? Torture 101 with Professor Khamûl. Or Metallurgy 243: The Forging of Morgul Blades, with a mandatory lab component.

Certainly a sort of biology class would be in order. Something that would explain fell beats, maybe as teens the Nazgul dissected that instead of frogs. Or Arachnology 202: Feeding Shelob.

[Morthoron]

There is a dearth of information regarding education in Lord of the Rings, along with virtually no information regarding minting of coins, commerce (there is more commerce referred to in the Hobbit than in all of LotR), taxation, military organization (outside the 'Captain' title), and any number of professions (scribes, for instance, are not mentioned, and mortal minstrels only two times I can recall).

In the Shire, one would assume that the mass of the population was illiterate, save for the middle and upper classes (for whom there was a thriving postal service). For instance, the Gaffer, based on his colloquial and malaprop ridden speech, was illiterate, and Samwise only learned to read based on the kindly intervention of Bilbo and Frodo. Interestingly, we know some female Hobbits could read (based on their correspondence with Bilbo). I would assume the dissemination of knowledge was strictly a family affair, passed on from parents to children.

In Rohan, I would again assume the majority of the populous was illiterate, mirroring, perhaps, early Anglo-Saxon settlements where history was passed along orally by scops and not written down.

In Gondor, education of any sort is seemingly on the decline. The very rich (like Boromir and Faramir) would of course have their personal tutors as part of their households; but based on Gandalf finding information regarding Isildur in Minas Tirith's archives that had long been forgotten by Gondor's scholars, it is obvious that there is only a reverence for the form of the past and not an actual study of history. This is also evidenced by Gondor's healers being quite ignorant (the babbling Ioreth for instance), which caused Aragorn much irritation.

Of the Dwarves, we know they wrote rambling contracts in legalese (Thorin for instance), and their avidity for commerce and their natural acquisitiveness made them a likely race for cultural literacy; for where there are accountants, there is the writing of lists, documents, inventories and such. Tolkien mentions on several occasions the Dwarves' fondness for the Cirth, as well as their secret language.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Of the Dwarves, we know they wrote rambling contracts in legalese (Thorin for instance), and their avidity for commerce and their natural acquisitiveness made them a likely race for cultural literacy; for where there are accountants, there is the writing of lists, documents, inventories and such. Tolkien mentions on several occasions the Dwarves' fondness for the Cirth, as well as their secret language.

We also know that dwarves could be very competent musicians--look at the effect their playing had on Bilbo.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In the Shire, one would assume that the mass of the population was illiterate, save for the middle and upper classes (for whom there was a thriving postal service). For instance, the Gaffer, based on his colloquial and malaprop ridden speech, was illiterate, and Samwise only learned to read based on the kindly intervention of Bilbo and Frodo. Interestingly, we know some female Hobbits could read (based on their correspondence with Bilbo). I would assume the dissemination of knowledge was strictly a family affair, passed on from parents to children.

One wonders if each hobbit farm produced its own beer as I think once was done in English farming communities. Now brewing is a fine art! And there would be weaving and sewing and quilting as home work, for clothes and bed linens. Tapestry produced some art works of considerable historical importance in our own Ages--perhaps Arwen's influence as Queen might have been to inspire a LotR Bayeux Tapestry of the War of the Ring. We could speculate endlessly whether this would have been produced in The Shire or Gondor, or possibly by both, each society producing different sections. No doubt the reason for Tolkien's reticence in including this possibility, while he does mention Arwen's banner for Aragorn, lies more with the French ownership of the famous artefact concerning the Anglo Saxon defeat. Nothing French in his Legendarium!

Plus those family genealogies had to come from some form of literacy. And, as I posited above, any society which produces its own calendar is not devoid of knowledge.

A formal system of education is not the only means of developing character, industry, skill, and art. Just the most bureacratic.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One wonders if each hobbit farm produced its own beer as I think once was done in English farming communities. Now brewing is a fine art!

It's quite possible. In pre-pasterization there was a limit to how far you could ship beer before it began to spoil so most, if not all, of the Shire's beer was likey locally produced. Pippin also mentions his desire to have stopped at the Golden Perch on the ground that they have "the best beer in the West farthing" (or something like that" which seems to indicate that that place, at least has beer that is likey locally produced, or at least in some way different from other beers Pippin has drunk.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Of the Dwarves, we know they wrote rambling contracts in legalese (Thorin for instance), and their avidity for commerce and their natural acquisitiveness made them a likely race for cultural literacy; for where there are accountants, there is the writing of lists, documents, inventories and such. Tolkien mentions on several occasions the Dwarves' fondness for the Cirth, as well as their secret language.

I always pictured the dwarves as a class type of system. The noble's sons got the greatest tutors and learned from great philosophers and mathamaticians, like the ancient Greeks, or even better, Carthage. The Carthaginians believed that the higher ranking aristocracy was superior to the average day worker but also thought it necassary that though showed this through superiority fighting, knowledge, wisdom, and governing. They were a proud people and the Dwarf's system might not be that much different than this.

Being a secret race we have little information about them, my guess is that the lower ranking families and their sons worked in the mines while some ascended to jewel crafting or making "magical toys" like we saw at Bilbo's birthday party.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

And Bombur was a dwarf, not a hobbit.

Kitanna, I have a Masters Degree in Biological Sciences from a leading UK University, so please do not insult my intelligence. I meant Bombur in relation to Dwarves as opposed to Hobbits, as one could make out despite the error, give or take a little, from the original sentence. For your benefit, I have edited the paragraph above.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Kitanna, I have a Masters Degree in Biological Sciences from a leading UK University, so please do not insult my intelligence. I meant Bombur in relation to Dwarves as opposed to Hobbits, as one could make out, give or take a little, from the original sentence.

Mansun, I note with interest you have a science degree; the problem here, unfortunately, is that you do not have an English degree. In regards to your sentence below:

Originally Posted by Mansun

Hobbits had an excellent sense of direction and aim, so archery was not a problem for them to master. Hobbits (the lean ones, excluding Bombur of course!) could also run at a good pace, almost to the level of Dwarves, so they could make worthy sprinters.

The paranthetical phrase (which I have underlined), referencing Bombur, is in agreement with the subject of the sentence, Hobbits (which is in bold print); ergo -- and Kitanna is entirely correct -- your sentence indicates that Bombur is a Hobbit. Therefore a mistake has been made on your part, and rather than getting indignant, you should gracefully accept the correction.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Closed to give everyone time to cool down. The thread will reopen tomorrow.

Reason: Way too many personal remarks and insults! I don't care who starts, but must all of you jump on the bandwagon? All posts which are not primarily concerned with the topic of the thread will be edited or deleted.

Dwarves took an interest in music, as did Men, Elves, Hobbits, and even Orcs (at least in singing evil songs), within different tastes and circumstances. Dwarves, I believe, were the only race to play a musical instrument, and as this activity is known to boost spatial brain power, this could have explained their immense skill in craft and mining. But the great lore masters, such as Gandalf and Elrond, saw little use or need for such activities. Note though that Gandalf, like Hobbits, found the subject of blowing smoke rings very amusing, so there is a similarity!

[Rumil]

Hi Mansun,

Looks to me like all the races played musical instruments-

Esty's Music Thread

(and links within)

Though the orcs seemed fondest of percussion and braying horns, so exactly how musical that was I don't know .

The dwarves seem to be the only clarinet-ists, those metal keys and twiddly bits look tricky to make so perhaps only they had the necessary metal-working skills?

The Saucepan Man reckoned Gandalf was a demon on the Hammond Organ, but I'd take that with a pinch of salt if I were you.

Oh, and Elrond was a harpist. It often used to be reckoned a useful accomplishment for men and women of 'noble birth' to learn an instrument, perhaps Elrond had harp classes back in the the First Age?

Was thinking on the more general education question and apprenticeships seems to be how trades and skills were learnt in the Shire. Wasn't the Gaffer 'prenticed to Old Holman to learn his gardening?

[Kitanna]

Hobbits (the lean ones, excluding Bombur of course!) could also run at a good pace

That implies you were referring to Bombur as a hobbit not a dwarf. There's no need to get upset because what you typed was unclear.

Edit: Morthoron seems to have said better what I was going for.

Being a secret race we have little information about them, my guess is that the lower ranking families and their sons worked in the mines while some ascended to jewel crafting or making "magical toys" like we saw at Bilbo's birthday party.

So dwarves rose as a sort of middle-class society of Middle-Earth? This is of course assuming there was a chance for social mobility among dwarves. If there was such a chance then education would have become pretty important for dwarves that weren't in the aristocracy.