Facing 19 Fingers and One Big Eye

[alatar]

I'm not sure Sauron would be comfortable with Saruman - a rival - hanging on the mat. On the other hand, I can't see Saruman playing second fiddle to the other maia either - even if he were the Captain of the Forces of Barad-dur, he would still be #2.

On the other hand, as Saruman had just been humiliated by Gandalf, and as he's already stated that he would accept lesser-than-optimal means to an end, he might become a captain of the East just to get revenge on the hobbits, ents and especially Gandalf.

Thanks for replying.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

On the other hand, as Saruman had just been humiliated by Gandalf, and as he's already stated that he would accept lesser-than-optimal means to an end, he might become a captain of the East just to get revenge on the hobbits, ents and especially Gandalf.

Oh, but he did exact revenge...in the basest, most meanspirited manner possible (a reflection of how far he had fallen), by becoming the petty dictator of the Shire, Sharky. He says as much to Frodo.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Oh, but he did exact revenge...in the basest, most meanspirited manner possible (a reflection of how far he had fallen), by becoming the petty dictator of the Shire, Sharky. He says as much to Frodo.

Hmm...started thinking about that. What again was the rationale for him to mordorize the Shire? Sure, he had business associates there, but I thought that when the Hobbits came upon him like some beggar on the road, he was going a different direction - so was the thought late in coming? I assume that, as he had little more than one fang left, he left the abodes of Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn and Eomer alone.

Had he been looking to be a spoiler - didn't Galadriel try to keep him from resume-padding - if he had joined with Morder, he could have led the attacks on Lorien, maybe to better effect.

Maybe since the attack of the Ents, he developed a phobia about trees, and so had as many as possible cut down in the Shire.

[The Might]

In all of LotR one thing is more clear than anything - Sauron needed no help from Saruman. He had so many forces in Mordor he could have destroyed everything alone, and I really mean everything. It was a great misfortune that something slipped into Mordor and all the way to Mount Doom, a truly unexpected event.

So if he was 110% sure he could anihilate all alone, why would he accept Saruman's help?

Give me one good reason for that. I doubt there is any.

He knew Saruman may try to backstab him and take his place as ruler and he was smart enough to avoid that. Plus, I am pretty sure people like Mouth Of Sauron would also not have welcomed Saruman, especially as they wanted the high posts as stewards over the western lands answering only to Sauron. So they may have dealt with Saruman before he even got to Mordor to ask for forgiveness.

Saruman did the only thing he could do, there was no other place he could enslave and rule with only a hand full of ruffians - the Shire was the perfect opportunity.
Ok, theoretically he could have tried to go East, past Mordor and to have Easterlings worship him, but even there Sauron had his agents and would not have tolerated competition, plus Saruman had a reason to go to the Shire - revenge.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

In all of LotR one thing is more clear than anything - Sauron needed no help from Saruman. He had so many forces in Mordor he could have destroyed everything alone, and I really mean everything.

Note that he (Sauron) *was* using Saruman to attack the rear of the forces of the West. Had the Uruks overrun Rohan, they would have then assisted in the attack on Minas Tirith.

It was a great misfortune that something slipped into Mordor and all the way to Mount Doom, a truly unexpected event.

Hey, whose side are you on?

So if he was 110% sure he could anihilate all alone, why would he accept Saruman's help?

Again, as he was using Saruman for something, why not use him for something else?

Give me one good reason for that. I doubt there is any.

I'll give two: One, as Saruman said to Theoden, one just doesn't cast aside the help of a maia so easily, and Saruman had to have had some information, such as about the White Council, that could prove advantageous to Sauron, and Saruman was a Ring maker too (which could prove helpful), and they were both maia of Aule, and so probably shared some secret guild handshake.

He knew Saruman may try to backstab him and take his place as ruler and he was smart enough to avoid that. Plus, I am pretty sure people like Mouth Of Sauron would also not have welcomed Saruman, especially as they wanted the high posts as stewards over the western lands answering only to Sauron. So they may have dealt with Saruman before he even got to Mordor to ask for forgiveness.

True. But by leaving him loose, they were leaving a loose end, which could not only lead to some future plot against them, but also a straight-to-video sequel named, "The Son of Saruman." Plus, it's good to keep your enemies close, as, as you say, it's easier to stab them in the back.

Saruman did the only thing he could do, there was no other place he could enslave and rule with only a hand full of ruffians - the Shire was the perfect opportunity.
Ok, theoretically he could have tried to go East, past Mordor and to have Easterlings worship him, but even there Sauron had his agents and would not have tolerated competition, plus Saruman had a reason to go to the Shire - revenge.

Agreed. The Shire was a soft target. I don't think that it was so much about 'revenge,' but more due to the circumstances. If the hobbits hailed from a Minas Tirithy kind of place, he (Saruman) may have chosen some other form of mischief.

[The Might]

Well, sir, although the old saying about "keep your enemies closer" has a certain importance, it still makes no sense at all why Sauron, who was sure he would soon be the sole master of Middle-earth use Saruman as a lieutenant of his forces. In the end both seeked the same - the Ring - and Sauron knew it. But there could only be one who possesed it, so Saruman would have been eliminated. This is beyond doubt, or at least I am sure of it. You say, Sauron could gain some advantages off the alliance - true, useful, but not necessary, not at all. Only a bonus at most.

Plus, I ask for some understanding here, but the whole idea about the son of Sauron makes no sense at all for me. Really, no sense. I mean, why would Sauron in any respect fear Saruman?

From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Saruman. Which leads to the conclusion that no matter what Saruman did it was virtually impossible for him to really do anything in the end against Sauron - it was inevitable, he could not become the next Dark Lord.

This is why I all in all feel that the whole theory of Saruman helping Sauron is based on no evidence at all, hence it appears that Saruman would never have considered truly serving Sauron.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

Well, sir, although the old saying about "keep your enemies closer" has a certain importance, it still makes no sense at all why Sauron, who was sure he would soon be the sole master of Middle-earth use Saruman as a lieutenant of his forces. In the end both seeked the same - the Ring - and Sauron knew it. But there could only be one who possesed it, so Saruman would have been eliminated. This is beyond doubt, or at least I am sure of it. You say, Sauron could gain some advantages off the alliance - true, useful, but not necessary, not at all. Only a bonus at most.

I think that we are in agreement here. Sauron could do it all without Saruman, but Saruman, as you say, needed the Dark Lord (or the One Ring) to increase his dominion. I just was wondering if that ole honey-tongued viper (Saruman) would make an attempt to ride Sauron's coattails.

Plus, I ask for some understanding here, but the whole idea about the son of Sauron makes no sense at all for me. Really, no sense. I mean, why would Sauron in any respect fear Saruman?

Maybe because I wrote, "Son of Saruman." It was a lame attempt at humor; I will refrain in the future...

From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Saruman.

I agree with the first half, but I thought that Gandalf - or any other of the Wise - with the One Ring would be equal to Sauron, or at least have the ability to become another Dark Lord.

Which leads to the conclusion that no matter what Saruman did it was virtually impossible for him to really do anything in the end against Sauron - it was inevitable, he could not become the next Dark Lord.

If only he had hobbits...and catapults...with lasers... But seriously (sorry ), wasn't it Gandalf the one who states at the Council of Elrond that by Saruman's knowledge the White Council were able to scare Sauron from Dol Guldur...oops, that's another thread.

This is why I all in all feel that the whole theory of Saruman helping Sauron is based on no evidence at all, hence it appears that Saruman would never have considered truly serving Sauron.

Much agreed. I'm attempting to speculate, given any evidence, what would happen "if." Weren't I recently accused of lacking in this ability?

All in jest - alatar

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by The Might

From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Saruman.

Don't you mean:

"From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Sauron."

It was a bit confusing when I read it the first time.

Other than that, everything I would have said about this has already been said.