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#1 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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Well, as it seems that everyone else judges that this was the best way to solve things in the Shire I'll give up the discussion.
If even Merry speaks against me, then indeed within the LotR context there does not seem to have been any other way to solve things at that time. Interestingly enough, nobody wishes to analyse and discuss this question out of the LotR context. Perhaps because for many it is an inconvenient truth as Mr. Gore would put it that they would be ready to sacrifice lives for some goal. Just like Merry and Pippin did. I doubt that the Hobbits taking part knew what awaited them, Formendacil. I doubt they can be expected to have really taken death into consideration. It is as if you're expecting adventurous teens sent to Irak wanting to be part of something grand to also expect their deaths in some explosion. They don't, because they aren't mature or wise enough or in the Hobbits case may have never witnessed or heard of such an end. The volunteering Hobbits can surely be praised for their bravery, but we by taking the context into consideration as Morth said we should do it becomes clear that they did not expect or know death. Who did? The four companions and Gandalf. Bringing the guilt question back to them for sending the Hobbits into battle, well knowing the possible consequence. Ok, except Frodo, he didn't want battle actually. But, yeah, ok, so the Scouring made sense, no matter who was guilty for the casualties. And so did all the other killing in M-e made in the name of good, peace, order, the Valar, etc. I'll keep that in mind for further discussions so as to not oppose the general view too much.
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“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
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#2 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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![]() Quote:
It has to do with forum posting policy. Quote:
For more info, see this post by Estelyn: Guidelines for Forum Posting. She has some good things to say, too, about debate, discussion and accepting criticism and opposing thought. I've really appreciated Formendacil's posts on free will and Gandalf. I think they made the question relevant to the ethos of LotR. I could see, for instance, a more modern writer not having Wormtongue killed but having the hobbits and Wormtongue having to work out their differences. But the harsh irony of his end says something about Tolkien's ideas on fate, dramatic structure, and the sorry nature of warfare.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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For myself, I'm not willing to discuss it outside the LotR context because I don't believe this is the proper forum for it. This being the Books forum, I would expect the discussion to be a literary one, first and foremost. I'm not exactly sure where a discussion of Tolkien's literary politics versus Real World politics would be best located, but for me, this doesn't really feel like the right place. Just my opinion, of course.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#4 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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So non-Tolkien matters that are still relevant to a Tolkien-related discussion are not welcomed. Meaning that all arguments must come from Tolkien's work, keeping it all simply Tolkien. Well, now that I know that this is the official policy I guess I have no possibility but to accept it.
I do however dislike this, not having been aware of this fact up until know, since it creates a very tight barrier around this "playground" so to speak, one that one cannot cross. But, if it was decided to do so, fine. I will also refrain from discussing anything not directly linked to Tolkien's works, or in the Movies forum to any movies based on his works.
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“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
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#5 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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![]() However, the policy has served the Downs well in that it has saved us from likely tsunamis from Potter philes, Lewis lovers, Conan buffs, and hoards of fantasy gamers. It also provides the intellectual challenge of forming questions and threads in clever ways so that they are relevant and are clearly seen to be relevant. I think Ibrin is on to something. ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#6 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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Wouldn't that be Potter philes, Lewis lovers and Conan connoisseurs?
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#7 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#8 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
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Re: hobbit innocence
I am always somewhat baffled when people speak of hobbit innocence in a positive sense and lament its loss. Hobbits are NOT children. Adult persons living in a wide world have no call to be innocent. They have no right to be innocent.
Hobbit innocence was bought at a heavy price, and it were the Dunedain who paid the price: those who died at Fornost in 1974-75, in the Ettenmoors, all over old Arnor and finally at Sarn Ford in 3018. Aragorn paid for Hobbit innocence when he had lost his grandfather a year before he was born and his father when he was two, when he himself went to kill orcs and lost HIS innocence well before he was twenty. But have a look at a fifty-year-old Hobbit, another dweller of Arnor: Quote:
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You would counter that the hobbits had sent some archers to the last Angmar war. But read it again: Quote:
Now in 3018 the greenhouse conditions had abruptly ended. The Rangers were either slaughtered at Sarn Ford, or went South to aid Aragorn. Only that made the invasion of the Shire by the ruffians possible. Were the Hobbits tougher people, less lazy, meek and fat, no ruffian would have dared to molest them, because they outnumbered the evil Men many times over. The occupation of the Shire was the Hobbits' own fault in the first place. Quote:
Yes the Scouring made hobbits better, IMO, - but for a short time. Unfortunately, all the positive effects would be obliterated by King Elessar's stupid decree prohibiting Men to enter the Shire. The greenhouse conditions would continue, leading to the inevitable outcome: Quote:
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#9 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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