Absolute Good in Lord of the Rings

[Boromir88]

Formen great stuff.

I was more, or less, just speculating on a couple things that came to mind. Because I think the essential question is can someone who is not absolutely evil (as Tolkien clearly states Sauron wasn't) create an object that is? Also, when if you believe in Gandalf's words, that Bilbo's finding of the Ring, was something the Ring had not intended, then can we talk in absolutes?

I agree that to be absolute, you not only have to have pure and absolute intentions (either good or evil), you also have to be all-knowing and all-powerful. The Ring is neither, good things happen beyond it's control, and of course while it does have great power over people, it's not all-powerful.

Granted, these instances were merely a by-product of the Ring's power and not its primary function~Morthoron

I would argue that invisibility isn't an off-shoot of the Ring, but a power that the Ring uses itself. Perhaps this is better left for another thread, but I'll just briefly state my points here...

In A Long Expected Party, Bilbo remarks that he always felt an "Eye" searching for him, and this made him want to put on the Ring and hide. I find it interesting that anyone in trouble, turns to the Ring to hide. Isildur wanted to escape from the ambush, but after he puts on the Ring, it slips off; he's shot and killed. Whenever the Ringwraiths are around, Frodo has this urge to put on the Ring, on Weathertop it costs him severely. On Amon Hen, the entire quest is almost blown-up, as Frodo puts it on to escape Boromir and he's almost discovered by Sauron. Gollum used the Ring to sneak around and steal, when he's in the Misty Mountains Gandalf says that the influence of the Ring began to wear off, because Gollum had no need to hide/use the Ring while under the mountains.

I think the Ring uses invisibility as a mind-game, a trick, a trap, to snare it's bearer. It makes its bearer believe, if you put me on, you'll be invisible, no one can find you, you can get out of danger, but really it's a false sense of security. The Ringwraiths and/or Sauron could spot you, and in Isildur's case it betrayed him. Now, how about Bilbo? My only guess is the Ring wanted to escape the Mountains/get away from Gollum.

Like I said, this is probably better left for a seperate thread, I just wanted to briefly point out, I'm not so sure about invisibility being an off-shoot of the Ring's powers. Rather it's a trick the Ring uses to lull it's bearer into believing his is safe/he is unseen. This is just more speculation on my part, just every instance that I could think of, the Ring uses it's invisibility as a trap.

[Lalwendë]

The Ring cannot be an 'absolute evil' and there's an excellent reason why - Tom Bombadil. To him, it might as well just be a piece of tat from Ratners.

Used, desired, fought over - in all of these circumstances, the Ring is indeed evil, but lightly flipped up in the air like a two bob coin, it's just a ring. Note that Bilbo never really suffers the terrible consequences that Isildur, Frodo and Gollum all suffer - he doesn't carry the burden of knowing what this thing is nor does he have any desire to do anything sinister; he can also give it up relatively easily - I should imagine Bilbo would have had much more trouble coming off Pipeweed (if Rivendell was the non-smoking house that you suspect it might be ) than giving up the Ring This is possibly why Gandalf kept his suspicions quiet for so long, too...

The things which the Ring causes clearly partly depend upon the minds/hearts of those who possess it, so it isn't 'evil' in and of itself.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Likewise, to get back to my explanation regarding Manwë, it is not that I think he is anyway less than completely good, but that he is not absolutely good. Everything that Manwë does is good, but it is not absolutely good because he does not have the foresight to know what is best in every situation, and so cannot do it (the example of Númenor already given is pertinent) in every situation. Though the motivation of Manwë remains good in all situations, he is not absolutely good because he lacks the knowledge or power to be so.

So, does this excuse him from the inevitable results of getting on the big celestial phone to 'sir' and grassing up the Numenoreans? His intentions were good, but was he to know Eru would just rip a huge rift in the sea bed and send innocents to the depths?

It would have irrevocably changed the story of course, but had I been Eru I would have instead chastised the Valar for doing such a stupid thing as creating Numenor as it was in the first place! Though of course they might have spent the rest of their days weeping for the lost children of Numenor after their over-reaching all went wrong!