Patriotism and the Lord of the Rings

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

The marchwardens of Lothlorien appear quite dedicated to the defense of their land, but I sometimes wonder if they are more devoted to Celeborn and Galadriel than to any sense of "country." Then again, is "country" an actual place, or a sense of community not dependent on a physical location? I think that for the mortals, a sense of physical place is important, as the land is passed down from generation to generation, but among the Elves, it might be less so, since in a long, immortal lifetime, one might get bored with staying in one place (as some of the Noldor did in Valinor), but could carry a devotion to a specific group of people from place to place.

Very perceptive, Ibrin.

If you look at history, particularly in the manner a philologist like Tolkien would, then the migration of clans, including their societal norms, customs and language, would take precedence over nationalism, which is a relatively new process in time. Patriotism, then, should be viewed as an Anglo-Saxon, Celt, Goth or a Norman would see it; that is, identifying with kin or clan over the physical boundaries of a given realm. In France, for instance, it wasn't until the 15th century that there was a consolidation of power by the monarchy sufficient enough to weld disparate Burgundians, Armagnacs, Guiennese, etc., into a unified country. In the Dark Ages, the later Merovingian kings ruled only the Ile de Paris, and had varying influence outside that limited scope.

Tolkien tracks migrations of clans throughout Middle-earth's history: The Eldar from Cuivienen to Aman, the Noldor back to Arda, 1st Age Men from the East, Numenoreons to Gondor and Harad, the Eotheod from Rhovanion to Rohan, the Wainriders and Balchoth from Rhun or Hildor, Hobbits from the Vale of Anduin to the Angle, to the Shire, etc. In nearly every case, the customs and the very nature of the migratory clans were preserved in the lands they conquered or settled, and the patriotism is far less national and more allied to the clan. Gondorions still relive their illustrious Numenorean past, The Rohirrim have progressed very little from their Northmen antecedents, and the Hobbits are clannish in the extreme.

[Lalwendë]

Some great food for thought here!

Originally Posted by Ibrin

Then again, is "country" an actual place, or a sense of community not dependent on a physical location? I think that for the mortals, a sense of physical place is important, as the land is passed down from generation to generation,

This makes great sense - if you have endless life then there is less 'need' for other kinds of immortality, yet mortals can only achieve anything like immortality by living on in the memory of their descendants. Thus things like passing on their property and land become important (as does having 'sons and heirs', thinking of Henry VIII, or maybe living on through doing great and memorable deeds....or in the modern age, just having a nice body and Max Clifford as your PR guru ). That could be one root of patriotism in Middle-earth and in the real world. I'd never thought of that.

Then you should take into account how settled a people are in their land and as Morthoron says, migrants might feel less connected to their land. The Rohirrim definitely give the impression of being a relatively 'new' and developing culture in Rohan (their wealth is portable, their literature still oral and not in libraries) - so their loyalties are to their people and less so to their land. Maybe this is why they do not challenge Theoden in his madness?

Another thought springs to mind about Hobbits. Their sense of loyalty is much quieter and yet they can be stirred into making a big show of their feelings. Very like the British who believe it or not generally do not like a lot of flag waving and find it ostentatious and mutter about 'jingoism' and the like - sometimes this is put down to the appropriation of the national flag and other symbols by the far right (Billy Bragg wrote about this idea) but it's also down to feeling simply embarrassed However, if the occasion warrants it, the flags and the pitchforks are brought out with gusto!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Then you should take into account how settled a people are in their land and as Morthoron says, migrants might feel less connected to their land. The Rohirrim definitely give the impression of being a relatively 'new' and developing culture in Rohan (their wealth is portable, their literature still oral and not in libraries) - so their loyalties are to their people and less so to their land. Maybe this is why they do not challenge Theoden in his madness?

I suspect that fear (stirred up by Saruman and his allies) gave the common residents of Rohan more immediate concerns than the mental and physical condition of their king (beyond, I imagine, grumbling over why the king was doing nothing to defend them). I do agree with both you and Morthoron; there is a definite sense that even the more developed "nations" of Middle-earth are fairly "primitive," when compared to more developed nations we know today (or even several hundred years ago). But there are definite signs that both Gondor and Rohan have laid claim to their lands and are determined to hold and protect them (Rohan to a lesser degree, being the newer of the two countries). They are cultivating and making use of the resources of their lands in ways that indicate a desire to remain there permanently, not merely as long as the resources hold out. Both have built strongholds, developed forms of military forces, and have plans to deal with the protection and evacuation of their citizens in time of war. No doubt there are other things I'm forgetting. It's too bad that we don't see more of the attitudes of the common folk of these lands, since one can argue that what appears to be "patriotism" in the ruling class may be more of a desire to hold land for reasons of power. Although I think that in Faramir's case, there is a distinct love of his country involved, a desire to protect his people not for glory or duty or even the approval of his father, but because he loves his land, both in its history and in what future it may yet have.

One does wonder about the Dwarves, though...

[Guinevere]

Originally posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel
The marchwardens of Lothlorien appear quite dedicated to the defense of their land, but I sometimes wonder if they are more devoted to Celeborn and Galadriel than to any sense of "country."

I think the Lothlorien Elves really love their country as well!

Haldir tells the fellowship that they "live now upon an island amid many perils" and that he fears that if "the Shadow will draw back"

for the Elves it will prove at best a truce, in which they may pass to the Sea unhindered and leave the Middle-earth forever. Alas for Lothlorien that I love! it would be a poor life in a land where no mallorn grew.

and Galadriel tells Frodo:

The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever be wholly assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron.

As for the Dwarves, their patriotism seems more allied to the clans. Nevertheless, they have a love for their ancient homes, like the Lonely Mountain, and Khazad-dûm, and try to win them back again even after a long time. The Blue Mountains where they earn their living in the meantime aren't really consideredy their country.