Sauron Greater than Morgoth...

[Vultur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I suppose it is a way of describing the waning of grandeur and wonder the further man uses science to reduce magic to an algorithm, or perhaps, like the Gaels, it is a way of explaining the coming Christian predominance and the slow death of the old gods.

That's an interesting take on it; I never thought of that. I had always seen it as drawing on the concept of a lost Golden Age or Eden. In Greek and Roman myth there are four or five, depending on the author, 'ages of man' each diminished from the one before. Even in the Bible, this concept comes through: after the fall of Eden there is a 'middle period' where lives are far longer than those of modern man, and then 'wane' to our own time. (Even Abraham, who's entering the 'historical' time frame, lived 175 years.)

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

it is said often that Gorthaur was the mightiest of the lesser Valar. such a statement is given to us about Melkor, as well, in comparison with Manwë. is then Gorthaur the mightiest, or would Ëonwë, who like Manwë in comparison to Melkor has greater authority or formal power, surpass Gorthaur?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

it is said often that Gorthaur was the mightiest of the lesser Valar. such a statement is given to us about Melkor, as well, in comparison with Manwë. is then Gorthaur the mightiest, or would Ëonwë, who like Manwë in comparison to Melkor has greater authority or formal power, surpass Gorthaur?

I don't recall a reference to Sauron being "the mightiest of the lesser Valar", though it is said in The Silmarillion that

Among those of [Melkor's] servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the cruel.

Valaquenta

That just indicates Sauron was the most powerful of Melkor's minions. His relative status among all Maia would seem to be a question mark.

As for Eönwë. it was said if him that his "might in arms is surpassed by none in Adra". So in hand-to-hand combat, he might have an edge. Otherwise, though?
As the herald of Manwë, certainly Eönwë would have greater authority, but as for his "ranking" in raw power in comparison with the other Maia, I would say we can't know for sure.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't recall a reference to Sauron being "the mightiest of the lesser Valar", though it is said in The Silmarillion that

Valaquenta

That just indicates Sauron was the most powerful of Melkor's minions. His relative status among all Maia would seem to be a question mark.

As for Eönwë. it was said if him that his "might in arms is surpassed by none in Adra". So in hand-to-hand combat, he might have an edge. Otherwise, though?
As the herald of Manwë, certainly Eönwë would have greater authority, but as for his "ranking" in raw power in comparison with the other Maia, I would say we can't know for sure.

thank you for clarifying that, Inziladun as well as reminding everyone that Melkor has many other servants "whose names have not entered into these Tales"

[Mumriken]

Sauron would be next to nothing if it wouldn't be for Melkor. All evil that exists in the world is because of Melkor. An evil sauron alone could easily be taken down by almost anyone. Well at least the Sauron as he is presented at the end of the third age. I'm sure Glordfindel and Galadriel could take him on.

Remember he did not have his ring nor his ability to shapeshift. He was crippled and would be not much of a threat if it wouldn't be for Morgoth's creations. (Orcs, balrogs, fellbeats, nazguls.) Remember how easily the white council chased him out of Dol Guldur. His power is in Morgoth's orcs and creatures of evil.

Put a weak morgoth against sauron alone and morgoth would easily win.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Sauron would be next to nothing if it wouldn't be for Melkor. All evil that exists in the world is because of Melkor. An evil sauron alone could easily be taken down by almost anyone. Well at least the Sauron as he is presented at the end of the third age. I'm sure Glordfindel and Galadriel could take him on.

Remember he did not have his ring nor his ability to shapeshift. He was crippled and would be not much of a threat if it wouldn't be for Morgoth's creations. (Orcs, balrogs, fellbeats, nazguls.) Remember how easily the white council chased him out of Dol Guldur. His power is in Morgoth's orcs and creatures of evil.

Put a weak morgoth against sauron alone and morgoth would easily win.

i agree with this because Melkor did not share every infernal secret with his vassals (assuming that Ainur magical power structures are analogous to human or elvish political systems). thus he would know precisely how to regulate his subordinates - and that probably in a terrifying way.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Remember how easily the white council chased him out of Dol Guldur.

Context makes it clear that, "their stroke was too late. For the Dark Lord had foreseen it, and he had long prepared all his movements; and the Ulairi, his Nine Servants, had gone before him to make ready for his coming. Therefore his flight was but a feint," [Sil, p. 375] So we have it that Sauron was already prepared to move. He was not forced out. It was but a feint.

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I'm sure Glordfindel and Galadriel could take him on.

Sure they could have, but he too could have taken them on, does that make them weak for him being able to do so? It seems that you're implying because they could take him on he is weak. So flip the script. He can take them on can he not? Does that mean Galadriel and Glorfindel are weak?

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Morgoth's creations. (Orcs, balrogs, fellbeats, nazguls

The Nazgul, Ring Wraiths, were Sauron's creation. Let's give Sauron credit where credit is due. He was a Maia under the Vala Aule, "In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people." [Sil, p. 26] and had skill in the crafting of things. When Galadriel's phial failed to work in Sauron's forge it is said, "the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-Earth; all other powers were here subdued." [RotK, p. 247] Sauron gave the Elves of Eregion the knowledge by which they crafted the Rings of Power, and he crafted in secret the One Ring so that he could control the various people through them [Rings] with it. He ensnared the men, but was not able to get the Dwarves or the Elves who did not wear their Rings until Sauron lost the One. These creations of Sauron did have some power to their merit. It is said, "There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine" [FotR, p. 256]. Also of Glorfindel of who you speak so glowingly, "On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once." [FotR, p. 270] Sauron's servants, his creations so to speak. Further Gandalf says of the Nazgul, Sauron's creations, "For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear." [FotR, p. 308] So the Ring was a mighty weapon through which he created the Nazgul and gained control over men and should he regain the One Ring gain control over all the other peoples. I also believe Sauron had a hand in the making of werewolves, those fell creatures such as Draugluin and Carcharoth. "Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies." [Sil., p. 198] Also we have in the Song from which that was taken,

"Men called him Thu, and as a god
in after days beneath his rod
bewildered bowed to him, and made
his ghastly temples in the shade.
Not yet by Men enthralled adored,
now was he Morgoth's mightiest lord,
Master of Wolves, whose shivering howl
for ever echoed in the hills, and foul
enchantments and dark sigaldry
did weave and wield. In glamoury
that necromancer held his hosts
of phantoms and of wandering ghosts
of misbegotten or spell-wronged
monsters that about him thronged,
working his bidding dark and vile:
the werewolves of the Wizard's Isle." [Lay of Leithian, v. 2064-2079]

Put a weak morgoth against sauron alone and morgoth would easily win.

Put a diminished Melkor against almost anyone and he will overcome. Take Fingolfin. I do not think you would go around saying Fingolfin is weak for it however. Why you hating on Sauron? lol