Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread

[Hansy]

Okay, after reading Day 1 up to my last post, I think that, had I done it earlier, I would've probably voted for Sally. She's done basically the same as last game - besides that, instead of disappearing after the banter, she vaguely comments stuff that has been discussed already - thus adding nothing useful, maybe trying to look good. That's mostly post #73.

I think Nogrod is evil. I don't quite know why I feel that way; I'll look him again, trying to find it out.

The Fea/Nogrod case; she was seeing clues in her own post before Nogrod had said anything (excluding his pretty Alice quote - could that be taken as a hint itself? I have no idea). So, she was at least prone to think there was something hidden, Nogrod happened to answer her back, the character is called "Han Solo" itself, pretty convenient for an hint... but there's more to that. You'll notice Fea was herself making more and more questions, just like if she wanted to get more "evidence" against me. So, what is this about? I claim she plotted the whole thing from the beginning, to incriminate me. But why me? I should be just a silly newbie. The thing is, I was a last resort solution. Because she wanted to incriminate Lommy. But she isn't playing. So, she thought, why waste such a brilliant plan to break havoc in the game? And it happened.
Of course, all that tells us is that Fea is an evil mastermind. It says nothing about her alignment in this game - and I'm tempted to believe she's most probably innocent. But that leads us to another funny subject, "Save Fea!"

Most of you shall know this business better, but here's the pattern I noticed:

1. Fea acts suspiciously and puts herself in line for execution.
2. Fea's fan club panics and focus on a random lynch to save Fea from being executed.
3. The random lynchee turns out innocent. Now Fea may, or may not, be in even more danger.

So, it's not really efficient.


Making lists is a hard work. I discovered that while trying to make one, during the Night. Well, you can have this:

Likely innocent:
Lari, Fea, Rikae, Isa, Brinn (although she doesn't count because it seems she will always look innocent).

Likely evil:
Sally, Nog, Mira, Eonwe

I have no idea:
Durelin, Kath, TP, Nemo

----

that's all for now, going off for dinner.

(crossed since Nog's post 586330, probably there's a whole new page already)

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Lari[/B], what do you mean, you shouldn't defend your vote?

The last time I went and defended my vote it backfired horribly. And I also had to explain it so many times so I thought I would do it once and be done with it.

Originally Posted by Hansy

The Fea/Nogrod case; she was seeing clues in her own post before Nogrod had said anything (excluding his pretty Alice quote - could that be taken as a hint itself? I have no idea). So, she was at least prone to think there was something hidden, Nogrod happened to answer her back, the character is called "Han Solo" itself, pretty convenient for an hint... but there's more to that. You'll notice Fea was herself making more and more questions, just like if she wanted to get more "evidence" against me. So, what is this about? I claim she plotted the whole thing from the beginning, to incriminate me. But why me? I should be just a silly newbie. The thing is, I was a last resort solution. Because she wanted to incriminate Lommy. But she isn't playing. So, she thought, why waste such a brilliant plan to break havoc in the game? And it happened.
Of course, all that tells us is that Fea is an evil mastermind. It says nothing about her alignment in this game - and I'm tempted to believe she's most probably innocent. But that leads us to another funny subject, "Save Fea!"

I see where you're referring to but then looking at it again Fea also then says, paraphrased, "wow, that was really silly of me". So yes, for a post, in fact post 145 Fea was like "zomg Hansy...no wait I was on crack."

I'm not saying Fea couldn't have done this, but it just seems...highly unlikely. I can't really see her doing this. And your argument doesn't feel right to me. It seems really skiddish.

I think I might take a closer look at Hansy, or do so in a list that I will be writing.

Edit: x-posted with Nog.

[Isabellkya]

Very quickly.
To Nog, I believe we were told it was the Black Queen whom killed Eomer
If I am not mistaken, the d8 is the starting point of the Queen - and is a dark square. Also, if I am not mistaken - the Queens begin the game on a square of their own color.

So d8 is a dark square, meaning it was specified as the Black Queen whom killed Eomer.

[Isabellkya]

Which causes a bit of o.O in my head at the moment.

In post #258, you talked about the black opening side because of the starting positions notated next to the list of dead people.
Which seems to mean, that you know a thing or two about chess.
Yet in #264, you say that the table did not specify which Q it was, but as already said - you'd already pointed out that the pieces were on the black opening side.
So wouldn't that alone, tell you that it was the BQ responsible?
Why the.. waffling (best word which comes to mind at the moment.) ?

On the other hand -
In #258 you also said that the opening starting positions may not tell us anything because of the lynching and killing of Gwath and Shasta.
Here is a theory - couldn't those things, mainly such as lynchings - be for the sole purpose of the plot? So they are a part of the game, but not falsely incriminating someone? When I say falsely incriminating - let me elaborate. I don't think Shasta could or would in his notation attribute the lynchings to the WQ/BQ/WB/BB etc.. Wouldn't that in a sense, not make sense?

Drat. Got sidetracked with my rereading.


X'd with Shasta and Nog.

[Durelin]

Man, poor Gwath...how many early lynches is that for him?

I love how the two lynchee possibilities were Fea and Fea's secondary attacker rather than her initial attacker. I guess because people are still obsessed with the bandwagon concept? I don't know.

Brinniel, as far as I can tell, did a 180 from voting Fea and to voting Gwath at the last minute.

And I love how Hansy summed up the whole thing.

But you know what, I have no desire to talk about that much more, because it normally ends up to be just a distracting mess. But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Fea gone at all. I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more. It only proves further that any sort of democratic system is a mindless popularity contest.

*shakes fist at the system*

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Durelin

And I love how Hansy summed up the whole thing.

But you know what, I have no desire to talk about that much more, because it normally ends up to be just a distracting mess. But on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Fea gone at all. I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more. It only proves further that any sort of democratic system is a mindless popularity contest.

Even if I disagree with a lot Hansy said in his post I do agree with this one. His summing up (points 1 and 2 especially) I agree wholeheartedly.

Okay guys, be sporty! Like I and my daughters (Lommy & Greenie) are when in a game. We ruthlessly advocate lynching each other if we think we have a reason - and that goes also in a larger scheme of things to Aganzir and Volo as well who are our RL friends. I mean the reason why Fea the cobbler was not lynched yesterDay was friendship and not the arguments in the game. And we could be rid of a cobbler now...

Don't get me wrong: in a situation where I have no clue about who to vote I tend to vote for someone I think might not contribute to the game so much or to save someone who contributes or I enjoy a lot playing with. Sure. But during some last games I have gotten a feeling there is a kind of mutual consensus between some people to just keep on helping some others because of the social factor even if there are good reasons to vote differently...

Yes, I like to see tp around for more than one day, and Boro and Rikae and Mac, and Brinn and Nerwen and... *add a long list here* because I think they are nice people whom I know a bit and I know they will contribute to the game eg. play it. But if there is reason to belive one of them is a baddie I do not hesitate to vote them. That's called playing the game.

Blah, one distraction too much for me... Going back to look at voting...

EDIT: Kudos for your last one Dury! Good general points!

[Nogrod]

I might almost vote you tp from that response you gave to Dury. I really don't believe a word from it - well okay some words maybe but overall it looks like a very bad apology.

The question is whether you tried to save Fea just because you love to play with her or because you realised that my argument about her being the cobbler was indeed believable as Fea would be on your side in voting & general hassle later on? I mean you have to prove your alliances in a way or another when you can't PM, and that would be a good way to do that? Building trust? Right?

Also the way you give the impression you understand everything that is going on and then go on being nice to everyone - and avoid making any actual suspicions - looks really like a standard intelligent baddie behaviour. What was it you said to me late yesterDay?

Originally Posted by tp

And despite how much we disagree, I still think Nog is fine. And if he's right about Fea then I'll support whatever he does tomorrow.

To me that looks very suspicious indeed... Be nice to the one you're intending to kill later - after you have toyed with him first. No traces left as you have been leaning to trust that one person for a Day or two. You can say "oh my, why they killed him, I thought he was okay all the time!". I just think you overdid it there - or then it is the difference between American and Finnish culture of saying things...

And why did you have to defend your vote in the first place against Dury's point which wasn't actually anything big as such? Bad conscience perhaps?

I like the way you play but this time I think I have reasons to actually suspect you.

Originally Posted by Sally

Silly man, get some rest. Mistress Sally commands it.

In a minute mom... in a minute...

[the phantom]

Leave me alone till I'm done with my reading Nog.

Originally Posted by Nog

I really don't believe a word from it - well okay some words maybe but overall it looks like a very bad apology.

You think I'm the type to make an apology for voting a certain way? Whatever. I might say sorry to Gwath, but it would be more along the lines of "Sorry you were in the position you were in at the time that I needed someone to save Fea with". I do genuinely feel bad about him getting lynched the first day. I pretty much always feel bad for whoever gets killed Day 1 and Night 2, because they didn't get to play much. Any sorrow you may detect in my post had only to do with that feeling.

Originally Posted by Nog

Also the way you give the impression you understand everything that is going on and then go on being nice to everyone - and avoid making any actual suspicions

I told you quite clearly yesterday that I did not have any even halfway decent suspicions of guilt. It was Day 1. Is it really surprising? I mean come on, Nog. The logic that you are using on my defense of Fea and my vote does not function properly on Day 1.

And really- you suspect me because I disagreed with you and still thought you were innocent? That's just silly. Simple odds say you are innocent, and simple odds say that your heaviest suspicion yesterday was wrong, so really now. You have to do better than that, Nog.

Back to reading...

[Nogrod]

I agree with Rikae's points on Izzy. Also I would underline that I have played with Izzy a few games and know she's perfectly cabable of producing actual points but now she seems to shy away of making any actual thoughts.

I would be very much ready to vote for Kath for sheer inattendance but if there is a bigger post coming I will have to cease my verdict. She has the nasty way of sneaking through the first Days with just these RL-problems but then somehow she finds more time later in the game - and she has won (or gotten very far) a few times as baddie exactly that way.

Sally and Brinn bother me as well. Sally's vote yesterDay especially and Brinn's familiar carefulness and agreeableness just creep me out.

Dury feels like too straightforward and challenging to be a baddie - unless this league of friends is all goodies and she's a baddie of a bunch of relatively unconnected people and opens her frustration with the situation...

Rikae has good points but that's normal - whatever her role is. Somehow my guts once again yell that she's a baddie but I have no clear place to point the suspicion into. Maybe it's something to do with her slightly opportunistic stance eg. she goes on building cases or making remarks on subjects that are probably going to fall nicely to the general feeling or something? There is something fishy there even if I can't pinpoint it.

Okay. Time's out very soon...

(Hopefully I managed to get half of you mad and retaliatory with this! But really, this is what we need to do!)

A cigarette and a decision...


Oh no... first a quick answer...

Originally Posted by tp

I told you quite clearly yesterday that I did not have any even halfway decent suspicions of guilt. It was Day 1. Is it really surprising? I mean come on, Nog. The logic that you are using on my defense of Fea and my vote does not function properly on Day 1.

Now you're avoiding the beef here. On Day1, yes, you're right, we rarely have anything on Day1... but this time we had... and have (albeit it's probably too late now to lynch a cobbler any more). You even agreed with the point but still managed to play away with it. Okay, I don't want to sound like a monomaniac but really the way you have acted looks more like "hey, I got this and will help this ally of mine looking as disinterested as possible". Not to say looking as agreeable as possible in the meantime eg. not trying to stir up any suspicions or retaliatory feelings. In which you're pretty darn good at. *envies* But really, what should innocents do; try to abstain from controversies just to keep their lives or to challenge and try others so that others might see things? You have been very uncontroversial this time and it spells devilry to me.

Originally Posted by tp

And really- you suspect me because I disagreed with you and still thought you were innocent? That's just silly.

No. Not just because you disagreed and still said you thought me innocent, but the way in which you did it. And as a senior WW-gamer you know that those who talk the nicest to you by Day tend to be the ones who stab you at Nights. You're not that naïve to think that those who rub you the right way during the Days actually love you and wouldn't hurt you during the Night?

And let it be said that your willingness to engage in this whole discussions speaks it's own language. I don't remember you to have sticked into futile discussions about your possible guilt - as no one will lynch you; never and no one - you're for the wolves to decide? But if there are some semi-actual suspicions and you possibly are a baddie is this the way you (over)react then? Oh good God...

Okay. I'm not too sure about this and would hate to make a mistake here. I need to think about this once more before going to sleep. I mean I was going to vote for someone else as I would hate to lose your wits were you an innocent but now I will have to reconsider.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'd like to point out that the chess notation denoting the lynches is for plot purposes only, as this particular setting doesn't lend itself well to lengthy plots.

The chess notation denoting kills during the night.... well.

Of course I'd also like to point out that I would have written a successful protection into the plot. Seemed like a rule clarification I should clear up.

[the phantom]

I'm part of the way through my reading. I've read the people with the fewest posts, including last Night's victims.

At this point I will say that the kills leave a rather empty trail. I can't see that either victim fingered anyone as innocent or guilty in a Seerish way (in a way that could be read decently after death), so the kills must have been based on more than White Bishop hunting. To make someone look bad, perhaps? Or was it based mostly upon safety- would leave no trail, or a faint wrong trail at the most, and the victim was considered unlikely to be, if the Rook, hunting you or your team mates.

As far as the Hunt is concerned, Nerwen didn't make it clear, did she? Maybe Rikae if I had to guess. Dunno...

Anyway, back to reading!

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Dur

I get very sick of people saving one another at the loss of someone else simply because they like someone more.

Just fyi, I certainly did not vote based upon this. Quite often I am happy to see Fea gone because I can never trust her and she never hesitates to kill me if she thinks it'll suit her ends. I made my save attempt because I truly believed I was getting a decent read on her, and after rereading her today I still think that she is not evil. I don't even suspect her of being Black Pawn.

[Durelin]

tp - But I also don't recall you having any true suspicion of Gwath, so I guess you're just saying you felt you had a better read on her being innocent than on Gwath being so?

Either way I say vote for who you think is guilty. Kay, peoples? (So yesterDay I voted for someone I did not think guilty, but I did not think anyone guilty as it was an early vote and I admit I had not had the chance to read any of the thread since I had earlier posted.)

Also, if we goodly people do that, then the baddies have to follow our lead and vote for someone "they think is guilty". They have to try to make cases and things like that, rather than just make friends by saying "oh I think this poor soul up for lynch here is innocent, so I am going to save them!"

End of useless blather. Guess I'll start actually following what I preach later and talk about someone guilty.

[wilwarin538]

Oh my, so it seems this will be my last chance to get on toDay, which I'm not overly happy about, something just came up that is totally unavoidable, so I will have to vote right now.

++Mnemosyne

As I stated before it is because of her first post toDay, just did not sit well with me at all, and after I re-read her posts from yeaterDay I found her very confusing and that just made me a bit more confident in suspecting her.

Sorry for my lack in contribution toDay. Good luck!

X-posted with Nogrod and Sally

[satansaloser2005]

Going through and reading, but I'd just like to say something quick, silly though it may be.


DUDE! Noggie, go to bed. We killed you off last game (that is, Brinn, Nerwen, and I) so you would get some sleep, but this game I'm not evil so you're on your own. Silly man, get some rest. Mistress Sally commands it.


And on that note some things from yesterDay. I'll hopefully do some more analysis on the votes, but the thing that really worried me was Phantom and Brinn right at the end of the Day, both glomping poor Gwathiepoo like that. (And yes, he's going to come from beyond the grave and totally smite me for calling him that, but it's just too fun to resist.) I'd certainly like to know if they x'd or if it was intentional bandwaggoning on one or both their parts. (I suppose if nothing else they both intended to separately bandwagon and both happened to do it at the same time, but it still strikes me as odd.)


And for Little Mnemo, I voted Fea because, of the suspects that were available, she looked the dingiest upon a short readthrough. Notice that Nerwen, Gwath, and I were/are all innocent (not that you'll believe me, but hey) so I still think I made the best choice. Besides, as I said shortly after I voted, I preferred to not have the lynch left up to Shasta and his coin flipping machine. We all know how that can end up. So, of the people who were close to the tie range, again, Fea was the best decision I could make at the time.



EDIT: x'd since....Izzy, I believe. I certainly don't remember seeing that post of Phantom's anyway.

[Kath]

Hi all! Just to say I am here and am currently writing a post. It might take a while to go up as I'm being distracted by the Oscars but it's on it's way.

[Nogrod]

Oh my... it's coming midnight here and I need to wake up at 6.30...

I suspect all of you, quite equally right now. And the only one I feel comfortable with my judgement is Fea who is a bad lynch for toDay as we need a killing-baddie and not a cobbler...

I think I need to count on your good judgement as my time for toDay runs out.

I try to wake up a bit earlier tomorrow so that I could see if I have a reason to retrack my vote but that remains to be seen if I'm able to do that. Sorry about the little input I managed toDay but polishing you guys takes time.

Originally Posted by Isabell

To Nog, I believe we were told it was the Black Queen whom killed Eomer
If I am not mistaken, the d8 is the starting point of the Queen - and is a dark square. Also, if I am not mistaken - the Queens begin the game on a square of their own color.
So d8 is a dark square, meaning it was specified as the Black Queen whom killed Eomer.

I already discussed that in my post #258 and think it highly likely that was the case last Night - but not all the pieces have been in their starting positions so we should be aware of not reading them too self-evidently as it seems there is something like a pre-set starting situation there - like in Lewis Carroll's Through the looking glass... and anyone familiar with "chess-problems" knows, those positions can be anything (eg. positions one would never reach in an actual game).


Okay some pondering and a vote coming soon.

EDIT: X'd with Shasta... nice crosspost that was...