Laiquendi - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morthoron · 04-07-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmjones0411

From your answers above, it doesn't seem to be outside the realm of possibility that some Laiquendi survived into the end of the Third Age.

I don't think there was a designation 'Laiquendi' in the 3rd Age, and those Green Elves that settled about Nenuial (Lake Evendim) were long gone when that area was resettled by the Dunedain, who made Annuminas on the shores of the lake their capitol. As I mentioned previously, they most likely returned to Lindon or joined with their kin in Mirkwood or Lothlorien (the Silvan Elves of those kingdoms share the same affinities as the Laiquendi).

Does anyone else have a reference or two that would help in this quest for knowledge?[/QUOTE]

The last reference to Laiquendi appears in the Unfinished Tales, so that would be a start.

Formendacil · 04-07-2009, 09:25 PM

With regards to the Third Age possible survival of the Laiquendi/Nandor, it's not conclusive, but it is perhaps pertinent nonetheless that when Frodo meets Gildor Inglorion and his companions, he finds it a unique event that they are High Elves, suggesting that any other Elves he has encountered wandering around the Shire have not been (though Bilbo has met Gildor before, it seems this is Frodo's first encounter with High Elves--though not with Elves in general, if my impression is aright).

What this would implicate is that there are other "wandering companies"--since no Elves dwell in the Shire, and Frodo has never left the Shire's borders. If this is the case, and the others are not High Elven, then one must search for an alternative race. Here, it seems, the two main contenders would be the Grey Elves and the Green Elves.

Regarding the Grey, it seems entirely possible that the Sindar had wandering companies, just like Noldor under Gildor, but the Green Elves seem even ore likely on that count, especially insofar as my impression of First Age Eriador is that it was mostly inhabited, as far as Elves went, by Laiquendi who never quite followed Denethor into Ossiriand. Since the Green Elves never seem to have had a fixed abode in Eriador, they may always have been wanderers, and on that basis, it seems to me that if they had any descendants (as seems possible, given that even the ever-diminishing Noldor still have a wandering company or two), they would still be transient, like all their forefathers before them.

A case for plausibility, anyway, seems quite easy to make.

Galin · 04-08-2009, 07:58 AM

On the names: in the First Age the Elves who crossed into Ossiriand were called Danwaith or Denwaith -- but this people called themselves Lindi (from the old clan-name *Lindai), and the country in which most of them settled they called Lindon (the Sindar previously had named this Ossiriand).

The Sindar, quickly recognizing the Lindi as kinsfolk of Lindarin origin, adopted the names, and then called them Lindil (singular Lindel) or Lindedhil, and the land Lindon, or Dor Lindon. And in Exilic Quenya (the tongue of the Noldor): '... the forms used (derived from the Sindar or direct from the Nandor) were Lindi and Lindon (or Lindóne).'

However these names were later replaced among the Sindar by Laegil, Laegrim 'Green Elves' -- given because of the greeness of the land of Lindon and because the Laegrim clothed themselves in green as and aid to secrecy. 'This term the Noldor translated into Quenya Laiquendi; but it was not much used.' That's the tale from Tolkien's essay Quendi And Eldar anyway (published in War of the Jewels). In The Silmarillion it is said that the singing of the Green Elves could be heard across the waters of Gelion 'wherefore the Noldor named that country Lindon, the land of music...'

In the relatively late text Of Dwarves And Men Tolkien notes that Gil-galad's people were mainly Noldorin, though in the Second Age the Elves of Harlindon were mainly Sindarin, and the region was a fief under the rule of Celeborn. Given that some of the Green Elves had earlier merged with the folk of Doriath, perhaps there were Lindi in the Second Age living in Harlindon, though Forlindon is not necessarily ruled out I think.

As noted in the thread already there were Green Elves in Galadriel's following, but this comes from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, a text which appears to have been revised in certain ways. For myself I'm not wholly sure Tolkien retained the sojourn to Nenuial: in this tale Amroth is born there, being Galadriel's son (a detail later revised), though I suppose the Tolkien-published text in The Road Goes Ever On where Galadriel '... passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion' could be a compressed version.

Anyway, just some stuff for possible consideration.

04-07-2009, 09:25 PM	#2
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	With regards to the Third Age possible survival of the Laiquendi/Nandor, it's not conclusive, but it is perhaps pertinent nonetheless that when Frodo meets Gildor Inglorion and his companions, he finds it a unique event that they are High Elves, suggesting that any other Elves he has encountered wandering around the Shire have not been (though Bilbo has met Gildor before, it seems this is Frodo's first encounter with High Elves--though not with Elves in general, if my impression is aright). What this would implicate is that there are other "wandering companies"--since no Elves dwell in the Shire, and Frodo has never left the Shire's borders. If this is the case, and the others are not High Elven, then one must search for an alternative race. Here, it seems, the two main contenders would be the Grey Elves and the Green Elves. Regarding the Grey, it seems entirely possible that the Sindar had wandering companies, just like Noldor under Gildor, but the Green Elves seem even ore likely on that count, especially insofar as my impression of First Age Eriador is that it was mostly inhabited, as far as Elves went, by Laiquendi who never quite followed Denethor into Ossiriand. Since the Green Elves never seem to have had a fixed abode in Eriador, they may always have been wanderers, and on that basis, it seems to me that if they had any descendants (as seems possible, given that even the ever-diminishing Noldor still have a wandering company or two), they would still be transient, like all their forefathers before them. A case for plausibility, anyway, seems quite easy to make. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

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04-08-2009, 07:58 AM	#3
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	On the names: in the First Age the Elves who crossed into Ossiriand were called Danwaith or Denwaith -- but this people called themselves Lindi (from the old clan-name Lindai), and the country in which most of them settled they called Lindon* (the Sindar previously had named this Ossiriand). The Sindar, quickly recognizing the Lindi as kinsfolk of Lindarin origin, adopted the names, and then called them Lindil (singular Lindel) or Lindedhil, and the land Lindon, or Dor Lindon. And in Exilic Quenya (the tongue of the Noldor): '... the forms used (derived from the Sindar or direct from the Nandor) were Lindi and Lindon (or Lindóne).' However these names were later replaced among the Sindar by Laegil, Laegrim 'Green Elves' -- given because of the greeness of the land of Lindon and because the Laegrim clothed themselves in green as and aid to secrecy. 'This term the Noldor translated into Quenya Laiquendi; but it was not much used.' That's the tale from Tolkien's essay Quendi And Eldar anyway (published in War of the Jewels). In The Silmarillion it is said that the singing of the Green Elves could be heard across the waters of Gelion 'wherefore the Noldor named that country Lindon, the land of music...' In the relatively late text Of Dwarves And Men Tolkien notes that Gil-galad's people were mainly Noldorin, though in the Second Age the Elves of Harlindon were mainly Sindarin, and the region was a fief under the rule of Celeborn. Given that some of the Green Elves had earlier merged with the folk of Doriath, perhaps there were Lindi in the Second Age living in Harlindon, though Forlindon is not necessarily ruled out I think. As noted in the thread already there were Green Elves in Galadriel's following, but this comes from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, a text which appears to have been revised in certain ways. For myself I'm not wholly sure Tolkien retained the sojourn to Nenuial: in this tale Amroth is born there, being Galadriel's son (a detail later revised), though I suppose the Tolkien-published text in The Road Goes Ever On where Galadriel '... passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion' could be a compressed version. Anyway, just some stuff for possible consideration.