The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Prev Previous Post   Next Post Next
Old 04-29-2009, 09:42 AM   #11
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.
Well, Tolkien expressly denied this last option.

Quote:
It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority'....No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.
He then says something which bears on the matter of Arwen herself:


Quote:
and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'.
This is doubly interesting: the implication (reinforcing others) that by the time of Arwen's discussion with Frodo in the garden, the Choice was already operative (before Elrond's sailing); and also the implication that those of the Elvenkind were somehow in closer "communication" (whatever that means) than mortals.


Quote:
What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange.
There is a trend in Tolkien, at least in his later reflections on his work, that 'exceptions' were granted specifically in those cases where a Divine Plan was involved: Melian's becoming incarnate and bearing a child; Luthien's becoming mortal and bearing a half-Elven child; Tuor's finding Gondolin, marrying an Elf and siring Earendil (and, we think, becoming an Elf himself); and Glorfindel's being released and re-embodied not just for his heroism, but specifically because his heroism ensured Earendil's survival. To this we might add the only other Noldorin Exile we know affirmatively to have been released from Mandos, Finrod: his sacrifice allowed the quest of the Silmaril to be achieved, and ultimately the "divine" strain in Men.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:57 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.