Nazgûl Purgatory

[Gordis]

There must be two approaches to torture in Mordor, I think.

I. One is physical and mental torture of living Men/Orcs. As refined, cruel and prolonged as it may be, it is by no means otherworldly and its time is necessarily limited (at least by the natural life-span of the prisoner). It takes a lot of art to keep the tortured prisoner alive, but once the tortured body can endure no longer and dies, the spirit is released and go to Mandos - and the prisoner is free, so to say. Not even Sauron can keep a houseless Men's fea from receiving the Gift.

It seems it is this kind of torture that mostly goes on in Barad-Dur, both for Men and for Orcs (Black Pits):

The Black Pits take that filthy rebel Gorbag!’ Shagrat’s voice trailed off into a string of foul names and curses. `I gave him better than I got, but he knifed me, the dung, before I throttled him. You must go, or I’ll eat you. News must get through to Lugbúrz, or we’ll both be for the Black Pits. Yes, you too. You won’t escape by skulking here.’

It seems it is this kind of torture MOS refers to speaking of Frodo:

And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done.

I think, MOS, being a living Man, albeit a sorcerer, simply has limitations. He hasn't got access into the Spirit World himself and cannot move others there. Physical and mental torture of living prisoners is all he and his minions are capable of. If he feels something worse than that is in order, MOS has to ask Sauron to do it personally or send the prisoner to the nazgul in Minas Morgul. In both cases it is somewhat like a loss of face and I doubt MOS does it often, and only in most important cases. Frodo, who was considered simply a captured spy with no connection with the Ring, probably was not considered important enough.

II. The other type of torture is definitely otherworldly. Sauron and his nazgul had discovered means to keep a Mannish fea in Middle-Earth for all eternity and do as they please with it. For that a Man has to be turned into an undead wraith. It can be done by Rings of Power (as with the nazgul), it can be done by a Morgul knife, likely it can be done by other Morgul methods inducing "living death." The Barrow-Wight's incantation comes to mind here - likely it attempted to plunge the bodies of the hobbits into death-like sleep while their spirits would be still bound to their hroar:

Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone

Likely with Eowyn the Witch-King referred to some method other than the Morgul knife through the heart, because first he had to bear Eowyn away to the houses of Lamentation, where is seems the later transformation would take place: flesh devoured and shriveled mind will be left naked at the mercy of the Lidless Eye. Note that it certainly implied trapping her human fea in some way: so it couldn't have been simple death.

Such a fate (ETERNAL mental torture) was in store for Frodo, had he been captured on his way to Rivendell:

'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'

I guess his place would have been in the Houses of Lamentation, if not at the foot of Sauron's throne.

Now, unlike MOS, the nazgul definitely despised the first kind of torture, likely seeing it as a child's play, an easy way out. After all, cruel and cunning as he was, the Mouth was nothing but a child compared to the nazgul. It is psychologically understandable: things the undead Ringwraiths would find really scary should last for all eternity, not for pitiful decades. Thus they didn't hesitate to apply such a dreadful otherworldly punishment even to misbehaving orcs or random humans facing them on the battlefield.

By the way, I believe the Houses of Lamentations were in Minas Morgul, not in Barad Dur. I see it as a place where lesser wraiths suffered prolonged mental torture.
Bethberry commented that the "Houses of lamentation was a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie." It is poetic indeed, but much in line with the whole aspect of Witchie's abode, the Valley of Wraiths around Minas Morgul. Everything there is totally unlike the coarse Mordor proper: statues, misty river, meadows of pale flowers etc… like a scary enchanted dream.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Iziladin

It did seem to me as if Gorbag could be describing some middle ground between this world and next, though.

Well, given you modify purgatory with "Nazgul", it stands as an intriguing oxymoron.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Bethberry commented that the "Houses of lamentation was a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie." It is poetic indeed, but much in line with the whole aspect of Witchie's abode, the Valley of Wraiths around Minas Morgul. Everything there is totally unlike the coarse Mordor proper: statues, misty river, meadows of pale flowers etc… like a scary enchanted dream.

Good point on the distinction between the two.

"houses of lamentation" for me always conjures up the book Lamentations from the Bible. There, dirge-like, beautifully crafted poems lament the destruction of the Temple and the desolation of the faithful at the hands of the Babylonians. Of course, the destruction of the Temple led to an intense period of spirituality for the Israelites, leading to a religion that became centered not on temple but on book, so for me, ironically, Witch King is speaking of a situation wherein Eowyn ultimately will overcome the defeat he prophesises (although it will take the Houses of Healing to help Eowyn fulfil her victory). There's a great deal of female imagery in Lamentations, where the city Jerusalem is given a female voice.

English literature has these echoes, which may be dying out.

[Rumil]

Just a quick comment,

The Mouth's threats of Frodo's torture made me think of Hurin's torment by Morgoth (not necessarily, naturally, but maybe). Especially the plan to release him when 'changed and broken'.

Perhaps as well as physical torture (see Gollum's fingers!) there would be mental torture - restrained and made to watch the fall of the West, death of friends and family, destruction of the Shire - in a Hurin-like fashion.

Then the mysterious 'Houses of Lamentation' which seems to be some sort of spiritual torture. If Gordis' proposal is correct and Sauron can restrain the souls of mortals from 'The Gift' in some way, then does this not explain the 'Necromancer' tag?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Just a quick comment,

The Mouth's threats of Frodo's torture made me think of Hurin's torment by Morgoth (not necessarily, naturally, but maybe). Especially the plan to release him when 'changed and broken'.

It seems releasing broken prisoners from Angband was almost a usual practice. Sauron is certainly as faithful to traditions as the West is.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Then the mysterious 'Houses of Lamentation' which seems to be some sort of spiritual torture. If Gordis' proposal is correct and Sauron can restrain the souls of mortals from 'The Gift' in some way, then does this not explain the 'Necromancer' tag?

Sauron was certainly a Necromancer as was the WK. The problem is we are not told that the Sorcerer of Dol Guldur (who was not yet identified as Sauron) did such sort of things. He must have meddled with the undead to get his title, but we are simply not told what exactly it was.

[Kent2010]

Houses of lamentation is a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie. maybe he shares some of Saruman's eloquence.
-Bethberry

I think that is the purpose, whether the Houses of Lamentation are physically a place or not, there is intense imagery and lots of word play.

A lament is a poem/song that expresses the grief or mourning of loss - there is a lament to Gandalf in LOTR. Also, Beowulf, The Iliad and The Odyssey have lamental elements. You have laments in the Hindu Vedas, the Sumerians city lament about Ur - it is one of the oldest and widespread writing styles.

But I might be getting off track, what I notice is the word play all revolving around "The Houses of lamentation."

I guess his place would have been in the Houses of Lamentation, if not at the foot of Sauron's throne.
-Gordis

Considering what Frodo finds out in Rivendell about his wound, it is I think a good observation:

You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'

There might be two different types of torment here - the physical torment that would be inflicted by Sauron, on Frodo, for taking the Ring. But then the other kind of torment that would be "greater" Frodo's loss of the ring and seeing another have it. You might call it "Frodo's lament of the Ring," not just losing something so precious and desirable, but knowing someone else has it and you can't get it.

Thinking of this route, I wonder if Gollum was tormented not just in the dungeons of Barad-dur, but the Houses of lamentation. Didn't Gandalf say Gollum was getting better that he was healing? But he is captured by Sauron and is filled with a renewed lust to find the Ring and get it back. Then Gollum going through his own "lament of the Ring," not just grief for losing it, but the grief in knowing who has it and you can't get it back. Although Gollum does scheme to get it back, because he has the opportunity. Frodo would not have this opportunity if the Morgul knife was able to finish its job.

I wonder if there is an actual physical "Houses of lamentation" or not, and there is no way I can answer that, but it seems more of a mental state. Being "taken" to the Houses of lamentation does not necessarily mean there is a physical place, it could be imagery. But there is definitely a severe torment connected to the HoL (I am paraphrasing now, because my finger are getting tired ). The reason I question if it is an actual place is because of the torment that Frodo would undergo when being taken to Sauron's throne, and it is a torment that would be greater than any physical torture Frodo would undergo. It could be similar to the torment Gollum undergoes, being Frodo's guide, but knowing he has his precious.

"Houses of lamentation" could be a mental state, that the Nazgul (and Sauron) have the ability to inflict on people. Placing their victims in an almost permanent state of mental torture through loss, grief, and mourning. It is healthy to mourn, but a permanent state?...not good. And being taken away to the HoL is more poetic imagery of the permanent state of mourning the Nazgul have the ability to inflict on people. I think it is the very state and torment the Nazgul go through as well, so I wonder if the Nazgul can inflict the torment that they themselves go through?

With Gorbag's quote...

...And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you...

I don't interpret this as being able to skin somebody, but more as a terrifying description of the Nazgul, and why people should be terrified of them. That is these guys all backlashed to their mother's repeated attempts to make her boys more social - they don't ask questions, they don't make friends, they would much rather torture somebody.

[Mister Underhill]

Unfortunately I don't have anything substantive to add to this very intriguing discussion, but I did think it worth mentioning that Colbert quoted the Witch-king on his most recent program, satirizing the "plain language" of his credit card contract (which he had to read with the aid of a loupe, of course):

Originally Posted by Stephen Colbert

"Should the Borrower be found in default of payment more than fifteen days, we shall bear thee away to the houses of lamentation beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shrivelled mind left naked to the Lidless Eye!"... That seems pretty descriptive.

So Inziladun has not only found a rare untapped topic, but he's also tapped into some sort of zeitgeist. Or... someone here either is Colbert, or writes for him. Fess up! Bêthberry, I have my eye on you. If lolcats start turning up on the show, you'll officially be outed.

[Inziladun]

I have to say I'm impressed and very much gratified by the response to this. Hopefully, I'll come up with something new to add to it myself!
And if Colbert is using LOTR quotes on his show, all the more reason for me to start watching it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

So Inziladun has not only found a rare untapped topic, but he's also tapped into some sort of zeitgeist. Or... someone here either is Colbert, or writes for him. Fess up! Bêthberry, I have my eye on you. If lolcats start turning up on the show, you'll officially be outed.

Inziladun has done a great job!

Seeing as Colbert is a LotR fan, as Aiwendil has said, I doubt anyone would be able to get lolcats on the show. Queen Beruthiel maybe . . .

There's a statue of Aragorn/Viggo on the set and, when Queen Noor knighted him recently (just this past April), as leader of the Colbert Nation, she used a sword which looked suspiciously like Anduril. Sorry I can't provide a useful link, as Comedy Central won't let us Canucks in.