Pengolodh - is it his name?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Aran e-Godhellim

(...) Etymologically, "Pengolodh" seems to mean (somewhat freely) "one who has wisdom with words," or "the Noldo of words."

Good work! It appears explained as 'teaching sage' in Tolkien's Words, Phrases, and Passages (at least), and in Sindarin it was said: 'Goloð was used of any sage or loremaster. A teacher of lore was pengoloð. KWEN- (whence kwenedé) 'speak with rational words'

Also the name Pengoloð (with respect to the Thingódhel question) is well attested in late writings 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings' (c. 1968).

And his history is a bit different from that found in the earlier Quendi and Eldar (itself fairly certainly dated around 1959 - 1960) -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood.

[Aiwendil]

Greetings, Galin! Nice to see you here.

I don't have 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals', so I'm grateful for the information. It sounds as if the name 'Pengolodh' is definitely well established post-'Quendi and Eldar', so I think we need to reverse our previous decision and use it rather than 'Thingodhel'.

[Findegil]

Yes, it seems Pengoloð is back.
Sorry that I missed that source. I have Vinyar Tengwar but I didn't earch it for Pengolodh when we discussed that name earlier.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Yes, it seems Pengoloð is back.
Sorry that I missed that source. I have Vinyar Tengwar but I didn't earch it for Pengolodh when we discussed that name earlier.

Respectfully
Findegil

Yes, I have seen it too, I prefer Pengolodh as an Exile.

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Galin

Good work! It appears explained as 'teaching sage' in Tolkien's Words, Phrases, and Passages (at least), and in Sindarin it was said: 'Goloð was used of any sage or loremaster. A teacher of lore was pengoloð. KWEN- (whence kwenedé) 'speak with rational words'

Also the name Pengoloð (with respect to the Thingódhel question) is well attested in late writings 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings' (c. 1968).

And his history is a bit different from that found in the earlier Quendi and Eldar (itself fairly certainly dated around 1959 - 1960) -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood.

Hmm. I don't have access to those manuscripts, so I can't add anything. Thanks for dropping in to tell us!

[Findegil]

As Aran e-Godhelim might not be the only one who does not have access to the Vinyar Tengwar sources, I will give the Pengoloð source here discussed. The § is in VT number 48: Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings - Part Two; Text II: Synopsis of Pengoloð's Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi. The passage reads:

§4 The following account is an abbrevation of a curious document, preserved in the archives of Gondor by strange chance (or by many such chances) from the Elder Days, but in a copy apparently made in Númenor not long before its downfall: probably by or at the orders of Elendil himself, when selecting such recordes as he could hope to store for the journey to Middle-earth. This one no doubt owed its selection and its copying, first to Elendil's own love of the Eldarin tongues and of the works of the loremasters who wrote about their history; but also to the unusual contents of this disquisition in Quenya: Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi: The Elvish Fingers and Numerals. It is attributed by the copyist, to Pengoloð (or Quendingoldo) of Gondolin (Authors Note 3), and he describes the Elvish play-names of the fingers as used by and taught to children. ...

Authors Note 3: Reputed to be the greatest of the Lambeñgolmor (linguistic loremasters) before the end of the Elder Days, both by talent and opportunity, since he himself had known Quenya (Vanyarin and Noldorin) and Telerin and preserved in a memory remarkable even among the Eldar the works (especially on etymology) of the earlier loremasters (including Feanor); but also had as an Exile been able to learn Sindarin in its varieties, and Nandorin, and had some acquaintance with Khuzdûl in its archaic form as used in the habitations of the Dwarves in Ered Lindon (Editors Note 25).

Editors Note 25: An earlier and more detailed biographical sketch of Pengoloð appears in Quendi and Eldar (XI:396-97), which describes him as "an Elf of mixed Sindarin and Ñoldorin ancestry, born in Nevrast who lived in Gondolin from its foundation", and who after the fall of Gondolin "collected much material among the survivors of the wars at Sirion's Mouth concerning languages and gesture-systems with which, owing to the isolation of Gondolin, he had not before had any direct acquaintance". He is said to have remained in Middle-earth well into the Second Age to further his studies, dwelling for a time among the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm, but he sailed to Eressëa "when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador".
The account of Pengoloð in ELN differs from this in some points. ELN states that Pengoloð was an Exile, meaning that he was born in Valinor instead of Nevrast and had no Sindarin blood. Also, in ELN Pengoloð is said to have learned something of Khuzdûl "in its archaic form as used in the habitations of the Dwarves in Ered Lindon" (i.e., in Nogrod and Belegost), whereas Quendi and Eldar states that Pengoloð gained his knowledge of Khuzdûl from the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm in the Second Age.

Now my question is what do we make of this? Does Pengoloð the Exile stay in Middle-earth "well into the Second Age"?

Respectfully
Findegil