A Face-palm for Sauron

[Boromir88]

Just because you are the maker of something, doesn't mean you know everything about it/how the thing you make will turn out.

I can attempt to make my sister's raspberry coffee cake for the 1st time, and I doubt it will turn out just the same, or just as good, even if I attempt to stick strictly with her "recipe."

When Saruman made his own ring, I doubt he was wanted to have a piece of jewelry for himself, he was trying to mimic Sauron and make his own Ring of power. As far as we know, it failed, and I doubt that was the outcome Saruman was hoping for...

So, simply because Sauron created a powerful Ring, that does not mean he knows everything about it. Sauron had the ability to reform, and re-shape into bodies before creating the Ring, why would his ability to do so after losing it, make him believe the Ring wasn't destroyed?

For as much as we know that Sauron believed no one had the will power to destroy his Ring, people will want to use it against him, maybe he only realized that when he was defeated by Isildur? First he assumes...well guess it was destroyed, too bad. Then after learning that neither the mighty Isildur, nor the stuck-up Elves, wanted to destroy it...that must means none of these weak humans (of the 3rd Age) will want to either. They will only seek to destroy me by using the Ring.

As far as Sauron recognizing his peril when Frodo reached Sammath Naur, that doesn't mean he knew that 2,000 years ago. What Sauron does figure out, is that he was 100% wrong about people not wanting to destroy the Ring. He always assumed the Ring's only threat would be if it was used against him, well if someone's taking it to the place where it can be destroyed, this proves Sauron was wrong, enter in doubt, concern, and fear that he could be wrong about the Ring in other ways too...not only now does someone want to destroy it, but mayber there is a powerful enough will to destroy it! (I'm only theorizing about Sauron's thoughts above, who can say for certain?)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

As far as Sauron recognizing his peril when Frodo reached Sammath Naur, that doesn't mean he knew that 2,000 years ago. What Sauron does figure out, is that he was 100% wrong about people not wanting to destroy the Ring. He always assumed the Ring's only threat would be if it was used against him, well if someone's taking it to the place where it can be destroyed, this proves Sauron was wrong, enter in doubt, concern, and fear that he could be wrong about the Ring in other ways too...not only now does someone want to destroy it, but mayber there is a powerful enough will to destroy it! (I'm only theorizing about Sauron's thoughts above, who can say for certain?)

It just doesn't ring true to me that Sauron put such a large portion of his power into the Ring without being fully aware what would happen were it to be destroyed.
The fear he felt when Frodo claimed the Ring so close to where it could be reduced to nothing had to have come from knowing how close he was to permanent disassociation from a corporeal form. What else would he have to fear? He was doing fine without the Ring from a military standpoint. It seems he could have easily won the war had the Ring remained hidden.

[Morsul the Dark]

Oh come on, The Write Brothers made the plane and HOPED it would Fly, Sauron couldn't have known about that, Did it ever get hit and he say Ouch my elbow? It's not something someone assumes. He probably nknew if the ring was destroyed the power he put in it would perish BUT not think He would die...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Oh come on, The Write Brothers made the plane and HOPED it would Fly, Sauron couldn't have known about that, Did it ever get hit and he say Ouch my elbow? It's not something someone assumes. He probably nknew if the ring was destroyed the power he put in it would perish BUT not think He would die...

With the potential permanent loss of so much power, how could he not expect it?
After all, it was over 1000 years into the Third Age before he was able to regain enough power to become the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and even longer before he was able to return to Mordor and rebuild his forces, And that was with the simple loss of the Ring.
Again, why the 'choking fear' felt as Frodo claimed the Ring? Fear of Frodo? Hardly.
Sauron was deathly afraid of what could happen if he did not arrive in time to save the Ring.
He obviously didn't need it to defeat Minas Tirith and Rohan. If he was unaware of the effect the destruction of the Ring would have, why not shrug his shoulders at Frodo, continue to crush the forces of the West, and tell himself he would deal with the impudent little Hobbit when he had more time?
Instead, he immediately pulls all remaining Nazgûl from their duties bringing fear and despair to his enemies engaged in a decisive battle, and sends them to Mt. Doom. Seems a very desperate and terrified reaction to me.

[Morsul the Dark]

realization... He Found out what would happen, and that's the point he was Still a formidable foe without the ring. Imagine you have a baseball bat, are you lose it you're weakened but then you rebuilld you learn martial arts you can still kick butt you find out your bat is still in existence imagine how much More powerful you'll be with it. He didnt think he needed it.

Besides you're assuming he didn't think anyone would destroy the ring... so that would mean he understimated it's power.... so he still didn't know Everything about it did he?

[Findegil]

I imagine that when the ring was taken by Isildur Sauron was in panic and winged away into hidding. I assume that the physical fight with Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur had gone badly for Sauron and that Isildur was able to withhold the ring physically from Sauron at that moment. Further I think that when soon after Isildur claimed the Ring as his own instade of throwing it into the pit of doom that this act allone brought Sauron the loss of power we observe.
This loss of power for Sauron in this down fall (the overall event) was terrible (for him). It is mention a few times that Sauron was in doubt about the ring and its existence. Maybe he recognised only when Frodo claimed the Ring, as a kind of a reminder, that what had happend in the Second Age was like a birthday party against what was possible with the destruction of the ring.

I don't think that Sauron did consider what the loss of the Ring to some other Lord or the destruction of it would mean for him when he made that Ring. Consider Celebrimbor, he also found out too late how much of his inherent power had gone into his three Rings when Sauron had bound it up with the one and Celebrimbor could nolonger destroy his own creations even with the help of Galadriel.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Boromir88]

After all, it was over 1000 years into the Third Age before he was able to regain enough power to become the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and even longer before he was able to return to Mordor and rebuild his forces, And that was with the simple loss of the Ring.~Inziladun

That still wouldn't necessarily prove to Sauron, the destruction of the Ring would destroy him too. Sauron could reform and rebuild before creating the Ring. I will have to track down the reference, but somewhere I remember Tolkien writing that with each rebuilding Sauron lost part of his "will." It wasn't the loss the Ring, but more of everytime he would have to rebuild, he would lose power, weaken, and of course each rebuilding took longer than the previous. So, theoretically, you could defeat Sauron for good militarily...with or without the Ring's existance, Sauron could have permanently been defeated, if you just killed him enough times. At least according to one reference, which I'm pretty sure comes from Letters, so there might be some questioning.

Instead, he immediately pulls all remaining Nazgûl from their duties bringing fear and despair to his enemies engaged in a decisive battle, and sends them to Mt. Doom. Seems a very desperate and terrified reaction to me.

Couldn't you say Sauron wanted his Ring back more than defeating his enemy? His choices more revolve on the Ring than defeating his enemy, because afterall he has an overwhelming amount of forces that could crush 'em anyway. But, his need for the Ring isn't driven out of fear that it would be destroyed, it is a fear the Ring could be turned against him.

This may be better suited for a different thread, but I've been working on the significance of the Sammath Naur. That is did the Ring actually need to get Frodo into the Sammath Naur to completely control him? By the time Frodo is getting there, we have no idea who is speaking, or who is in control...is it Frodo or is it the Ring? Also, we know that in the Sammath Naur is when the Ring is at it's maximum point of influence, so in order to gain complete control over Frodo, I wonder if the Ring needed to bring Frodo into the Sammath Naur? It's interesting , after being completely worn out and drained, near the Sammath Naur, Frodo suddenly finds the burst of strength to go running in...hmm.

So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

It's not something someone assumes. He probably nknew if the ring was destroyed the power he put in it would perish BUT not think He would die...

But that's exactly what happened. He lost almost all of his power. He was a Maia- he could not die.

[Boo Radley]

Yes, Sauron could have won the war without the Ring, but he lusted after it in a way that makes Gollum look like a piker. The Ring contained so much of Sauron, that he was incomplete without it.
Sauron to the Ring: "You... complete me."

And, as I believe was said, Sauron couldn't conceive of anyone destroying the Ring, he could only believe that someone would attempt to use it against him.