The Balrog

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I believe Gandalf even made a comment about announcing his presence.

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

[QUOTE]'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,'
he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here[ in signs that
all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin./QUOTE]

On the general topic here, one of PJ's movie errors was to picture
all evil as directly controlled by Sauron. It's far more complicated,
interesting, and realistic to have a number of autonomous forces,
for good and evil, with possible alliances. On the bad guy side
including Sauron, Shelob, Smaug, Caradhras, balrogs, and some orcs.

It is interesting to speculate on relative powers vof Durin's Bane vs.
Third Age (ringless) Sauron. And this is another reason for Sauron's
desire for the Ring. Even if Sauron took out Gondor, Rohan, and the elves
he'd still have major concerns handling balrogs, any remaining dragons, etc.
And it's one thing to gain military victories, another to govern the mass
of Middle Earth (of which Eriador and Rhovanion were only a fraction).

Ample room for the valar and Iluvatar to eventually engineer his downfall,
certainly without the Ring available for Sauron. The temptation (except for
the Nine) to seek their own power base would be enormous. Consider that
a Moria defended only by dwarves withstood Sauron throughout the Second
Age, how much more could a Moria defended by a balrog and his
minions do?

[JeffF.]

I think the Balrog could have done much to advance Sauron's military objectives. The three attacks by Dol Guldor & Moria orcs were repulsed but had the Balrog been there it may have been a different outcome. Even if Galadriel's power was too great unless Sauron himself came the Balrog leading Dol Guldor forces easily could have overcome the Beornings and Woodmen. Thranduil's elves also would have fallen. If the Balrog linked with the Easterlings attacking the Kingdom's of Dale and Erebor they would have overthrown all the North.

[Boromir88]

(I'm so silly, I originally placed this in the assassination thread down the hall...this I believe is the proper place).

But still who's to say the Balrog would have wanted to fight for Sauron had Sauron wanted it? Sauron couldn't force the Balrog into obediance. The Balrog was a Maia, just like Sauron, maybe one not as powerful, but Melkor wasn't entirely in control of the Balrogs, as he was over his Orcs.

Durin's Bane fled, and decided to make Moria his personal retirement home, he spent his days in relaxation and comfort, arguably what his intentions were after he fled from Morgoth's service. He was stirred awake by the Dwarves, and it was also made clear he was the Orcs' commander...he seemed quite content to stay under a mountain ruling over a host of Goblins, not wanting to enter into the service of someone similar to the one he left ages ago.

And as Pitchwife wrote, their rank in Morgoth's administration is hazy. Sauron seemed to always be Morgoth's chief guy (adminstratively and maybe his general 2nd-in-command), as Sauron was Morgoth's greatest servant. However, the Balrogs were right behind him, as wasn't Gothmog, 'Lord of the Balrogs', in command of Morgoth's armies? Also, in FOTR, either Celeborn or Galadriel make clear that you will not come across a more powerful and terrifying foe unless you were to go see Sauron.

Edit: Remember, the Balrogs were not forced or bred into Morgoth's service. They were independent Maia who willingly allied themselves with Morgoth (maybe even for their own personal gains as Sauron arguably did), and they willingly left his service when they wanted to.

[JeffF.]

There's something to be said for that, all the 'brave' or 'extremist' Balrogs may have been killed. This Balrog may have been one of the meeker of his kind and not wanted pardon nor to side with Sauron.

There is still the possibility of his service though, and Celeborn seemed the least wise of the Wise.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is still the possibility of his service though, and Celeborn seemed the least wise of the Wise.

I tend to agree with you here. Kind of ironic that his his title is "the Wise". But actually, it is not that he isn't wise, it's just that he isn't as powerful as the others.

edit: but do we actually know who all "the Wise" were?

[Hakon]

I think the so called "wise" of middle earth were all the extremely intelligent old people, and by old I mean lived a very long time.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is still the possibility of his service though, and Celeborn seemed the least wise of the Wise.

Did anybody actually seem wise in LotR who could actually have been when of the Wise? Elrond and Galadriel had both taken rings of power, Gandalf didn't know what the Balrog was until Legolas pointed it out to him even though he had to have known there was a possibility (unless everybody failed to mention Lorien's last Balrog problem), ect., ect.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Did anybody actually seem wise in LotR who could actually have been when of the Wise? Elrond and Galadriel had both taken rings of power, Gandalf didn't know what the Balrog was until Legolas pointed it out to him even though he had to have known there was a possibility (unless everybody failed to mention Lorien's last Balrog problem), ect., ect.

How about Cirdan?

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

How about Cirdan?

How much do we actually see of him?

But you're right. He's about the only one who I didn't have the urge to pick up and shake while screaming about finding some common sense.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).

That's what I was referring to. And as for not alerting anyone to his presence, why do you say that? As far as I'm concerned, anyone (or thing) with any kind of ability to sense the power he used to light the fire would have known where he was.