The Balrog

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

There is still the possibility of his service though, and Celeborn seemed the least wise of the Wise.

Did anybody actually seem wise in LotR who could actually have been when of the Wise? Elrond and Galadriel had both taken rings of power, Gandalf didn't know what the Balrog was until Legolas pointed it out to him even though he had to have known there was a possibility (unless everybody failed to mention Lorien's last Balrog problem), ect., ect.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Did anybody actually seem wise in LotR who could actually have been when of the Wise? Elrond and Galadriel had both taken rings of power, Gandalf didn't know what the Balrog was until Legolas pointed it out to him even though he had to have known there was a possibility (unless everybody failed to mention Lorien's last Balrog problem), ect., ect.

How about Cirdan?

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

How about Cirdan?

How much do we actually see of him?

But you're right. He's about the only one who I didn't have the urge to pick up and shake while screaming about finding some common sense.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Then again, if everyone had acted "wise" -- recalling and acting on all possible available knowledge and the most opportune moments, which is the implication I'm getting of the definition, here -- there wouldn't have been much of a story. I do agree that there is a strange inconsistency with the Elves' and Dwarves' apparent knowledge of the presence of a Balrog in Moria, and their lack of action to get rid of it. Personally, I think that Gandalf knew it was there, but hoped that it had buried itself so deeply in the mines and was dormant for so long, they might have a chance of getting through if not unnoticed then before it had a chance to awaken and come up out of its hiding place to get them. He would have reason to believe it possible, since he had been in Moria before, with Narya, and had gotten out again without (apparently) even stirring the creature's attention. He knew that the Ring drew evil things to it, and thus would probably have known that they had to make it through as quickly as possible. And if they didn't make it, he was obviously prepared to sacrifice himself for the quest.

When Legolas cries out "A Balrog!", Gandalf's response is, "Now I understand." But he never says precisely what it is he understands. That the evil thing with the orcs is a Balrog? Or that Aragorn's presentiments of danger and doom meant that he would die in this particular way? Or something else entirely? We're never told, although we do know that Gandalf was aware that he might not make it through Moria. As Aragorn later told Gimli, "The counsel of Gandalf was not founded on foreknowledge of safety for himself or for others," a sentiment which is echoed in Galadriel's reproach of Celeborn, "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose." All these things tend to make me think that Gandalf knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, and that he would face his greatest test (after the Ring) there: to lay down his life for the sake of his mission to Middle-earth, and thus personally fail to see that cause through to the end. "Now I understand" may have referred to his choice: to merely help the Fellowship out of Moria and go with them, letting others deal with the Balrog (which no doubt would have resulted in greater destruction and death in Lothlorien, and perhaps elsewhere), or facing it himself and very likely dying (since no other being in a true body had ever taken out a Balrog without perishing in the process).

In my experience, wise people generally don't go around advertising the fact. Which makes one wonder about "Saruman the Wise," who apparently liked being called that. At least it makes me wonder.

Cirdan, however, seems to have demonstrated the age-old wisdom of discretion being the better part of valor.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Boo Radley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin
My impression is that Gandalf's observation referred to lighting the wood on Caradhras (where it probably did not alert anyone to his presence).


Quote:
'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,'
he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here in signs that
all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin."


That's what I was referring to. And as for not alerting anyone to his presence, why do you say that? As far as I'm concerned, anyone (or thing) with any kind of ability to sense the power he used to light the fire would have known where he was.
__________________

It's a matter of inference. Caradhras was acting as an independent evil force (like Old Man Willow) before Gandalf lit the fire. And the Watcher went for Frodo, not Gandalf. In Moria tthere was no hint of their being discovered by anyone but Gandalf before that fool of a took stirred things up. It's only in the movie that anyone (Saruman) is definitely aware of the Fellowship's actions before they enter Moria.
Note the conditional "if" in Gandalf's comment, and that it was lit during a snowstorm.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Then again, if everyone had acted "wise" -- recalling and acting on all possible available knowledge and the most opportune moments, which is the implication I'm getting of the definition, here -- there wouldn't have been much of a story.

There wouldn't have been much of a story if everybody had displayed common sense in the history of M-E, starting with the Valar and ending with the hobbits. I fully understand that, and part of why I like Tolkien's books is that the beings expected to be the wisest and smartest don't always display those qualities which is rather true to real life.

It's just - and this is where I show myself to be just a teenager for all that I try to sound older - that Celeborn is one of my favorite characters (who I might have just a little bit of a crush on) and I therefore get really upset when everybody is attacking him for his actions. I look at that scene in Lothlorien and what I see is somebody wise enough to admit to his mistakes the minute they are pointed out. Something which all of the Noldor, who are the wisest elves according to many, are unable to do - look how long it took Finrod and his siblings to admit what happened to Thingol. And of Galadriel and Celeborn who came closest to taking the ring?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

It's just - and this is where I show myself to be just a teenager for all that I try to sound older - that Celeborn is one of my favorite characters (who I might have just a little bit of a crush on and I therefore get really upset when everybody is attacking him for his actions. I look at that scene in Lothlorien and what I see is somebody wise enough to admit to his mistakes the minute they are pointed out.

I admit, I never quite understood some of the fannish antipathy toward Celeborn. He did rather blurt out his criticism of Gandalf's plan for going through Moria, but not only did he apologize for it, it's rather understandable that an Elf who may well have seen Balrogs during the First Age might overreact at the announcement that not only has one been living virtually next door all these years, but it just took out a friend of the family. And we all have our favorite characters and will rise to their defense (as I'm sure many have already noted of me when it comes to Gandalf. Though in my case, it's more a role-model, mentorly thing, not a crush. )

That said, Galadriel's remark does indicate that Gandalf had plans of which no one else was aware, and Tolkien only occasionally deigned to give us clear insight as to why he did some of the things he did. Witness the story about the Quest of Erebor in both the appendices and UT, and the "piece of his mind" that he gives to Aragorn and the others after their reunion in Fangorn Forest. We just aren't ever told Gandalf's thoughts about going through Moria, other than that he had thought it might prove necessary. That there were other issues about such a journey under debate is shown through Aragorn's warnings and his attempts to dissuade Gandalf from going into the mines, his presentiments of personal danger for the Wizard. I should have liked to have heard one of their discussions over the matter in some greater detail; it might have cleared up the question of whether or not Gandalf was indeed aware of the presence of Balrog in the mines. But it would have had to be placed either outside the story, or in a reflection after the fact, else it might have given away what for many was a shocking turn of the plot, Gandalf's death.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

When Legolas cries out "A Balrog!", Gandalf's response is, "Now I understand." But he never says precisely what it is he understands. That the evil thing with the orcs is a Balrog? Or that Aragorn's presentiments of danger and doom meant that he would die in this particular way? Or something else entirely?

I took this to mean that Gandalf now understood what the nature of the magical foe was that he faced behind the door at the Chamber of Marzabul. He says shortly after that:

I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before

although it is true that this statement also resonates with Gandalf's early sense that some greater evil dwelt in Moria:

There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.

Celeborn and Galadriel seem to have had similar thoughts:

We have long feared that under Caradhras a terror slept

[Keyan]

I don't think Gandalf knows that there is a Balrog in Moria. I think he knows there is something very powerful and evil, but probably isn't sure exactly what it is.

I feel that the Orcs in Moria are there just because it's a position of strength for them to base their raids from. Also I'm sure they see the Balrog as something of a god, so if they are aware of it, which I would assume they are, they are probably there to worship it. If they are not aware if its presence, then at least it's aura of evil probably drew the Orcs to Moria. I don't think the Balrog sees the Orcs as anything more than cannon (arrow?) fodder and is probably pretty disinterested in them, although it may make use of them when it sees fit.

I think that the Balrog is aware of the fellowship early on, probably even before Pippins little incident with the well, and it is setting up a trap for them as they approach the bridge. Things seem a little too well planned (the fire, etc) for it to just be a spur of the moment kind of attack.

But then again, most of that is just speculation and opinion on my part.