A "Complete Silmarillion" in Spanish

[Aiwendil]

As Findegil points out, even if one does equate a life beginning in Palisor/Cuivienen with being one of the unbegotten, still a lot changed in Tolkien's ideas about the Elves between that statement from LT and the later Silmarillion material.

Thingol being one of the unbegotten is, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question. He has not only two siblings but also other unspecified 'kinsmen' such as Eol. One could perhaps posit a Melkor-Manwe type 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' relationship among Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo (though there is no support whatsoever for such a notion) - but the fact that Eol is described as being a relative of Thingol (when he is definitely not a descendant of Olwe or Elmo) surely implies that Thingol had parents.

Beyond this, a further obstacle to identifying Elwe with Enel in particular is Enelye. Obviously, Elwe was not wed when he met Melian; but Enel had a spouse in Enelye from the beginning. One is even precluded from some fan-fictional explanation that Enelye died - for this runs afoul of 'Finwe and Miriel'.

Thinking about it now, it actually seems to me rather certain that Thingol's life did begin at Cuivienen, since he was obviously alive already when the three ambassadors were chosen to come to Valinor. But it seems equally certain that he was not one of the original 144.

[gondowe]

Evidently I don´t pretend to convince anybody of my opinions about this questions, but in order to resume my vision of the matter and finish for my part this discussion, I would like to enumerate the points of what I think:

As Tolkien left the mythology unfinished, we must try to investigate among the material he left to us. But of course we (I) must be erroneous.

First of all, the Cuivienyarna is stated to be a legend even among the Eldar, not a kwoledge as "the wise men say". Few or no tales are stated as legends among the Eldar. A legend is half “truth” (subcreation), half invention. So the names could be (if you can say fan-fictionally) a sort of epesse and the tale and wives a “poetic” invention.

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

The same for Elwe/Thingol as is stated in the post above and the same for his brothers.

I said before: “As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen. Of course it could be possible he was begotten in Cuivienen, but it mades me odd that the ambassadors were not "one of the most ancient people, means the Unbegotten"”.

If we can take as truth all above, we can think the same about Finwe.

In other way If Ingwe was the first and was one of the three ambassadors, so Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third.

For me the key is how to interpret the Cuivienyarna, if as “true subcreation” or mere poetic tale, “legend”.

Tolkien didn’t write nowhere if the three ambassadors were the three main chiefs of the clans (that for me means the first three ones) or not, but I think there are more data to think so than not to think it.

Greetings

[Findegil]

The problem I have with this line of thinking is the brotherhood in the mind of Iluvatar. How would these brethern know of each other? Eru might have told the Ainur about such things in there own ranks, but who could have told the Elves?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

Yes, yes, Indis is later than the Lammas, what I wanted to mean is that we have both informations.

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I think the line about Eöl is the most devastating to the theory of Thingol being one of the firstborn. I can't reconcile them at all, and thus I must say that Thingol was of the later generations.

[gondowe]

Hello everybody, what about you fellows?
Since my mother dies on 30th January (i hope she are with Morwen, she was Eledhwen too), I did not wrote here, but in February I received the last Parma Eldalamberon, and with the firs part of the Tengwesta, The Descent of Tonges, i made an Appendix new combining this with the text of the Essecenta and other language texts like the ancient Lammas and Of Dwarves and Men.

And one thing brouth me to other and I introduced a change (minor in the context, but important). For me now re-reading the comments of CT, Eöl is not of the kin of Thingol. I think (correct me please) the last annotation of the professor is that Eöl was of the Teleri of the Hithaeglir, and the alussion that the relationship to Thingol would have point, could be a mere good relashionship of live in Nan Elmoth (represented by the gift of Anglachel). of course is an interpretation but for me the internal history is more coherent.

What do you think?

Greetings