Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Aiwendil]

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

As I recall, the Rohirrim are probably 'cousins' of the House of Hador, rather, who never crossed over the Blue Mountains. But I cannot recall a source for that.

In any case, the Halethrim are undoubtedly another very important topic in dealing with women and feminism in Tolkien. As Elmo suggests, it would make an interesting thread in itself (I can't say I agree with Elmo's opinion of Haleth).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

True but I think there was more to it - but I need to locate my notes to remember what. So I'll go and dig.

[Faramir Jones]

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor. If, for example, an ordinary Rider ordered to stay in Rohan behaved the same way she did, he would quite rightly be seen as having deserted his post and disobeyed orders, and would suffer serious disciplinary action. Eowyn, however, did not.

While she is a member of the royal family, this would add to the obligation to behave properly, to set a standard of behaviour for the people. My own view is that she was very lucky in fighting the Witch-king and being very seriously wounded. This was, presumably, seen by many as a sufficient punishment for her desertion.

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

What do people think?

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

I think they love her too much to judge her... and remember that this was a time of war; could they afford to think of such "trivial" things, like her joining them? Would they perhaps be angry when they discover her? Likely, but I think they couldn't spend too much time for that; the most they could have done was send her home with an escort and a terrible sermon.

Or perhaps, would they have deemed the judgment of making Eowyn regent a bad idea (because girls-can't-follow-orders-the-way-real-men-could)? I like the idea. Remember that it wasn't Theoden's or Eomer's choice to make her regent? It was Hama's suggestion, who thought that the last of the House of Eorl weren't Theoden and Eomer but Eowyn. That'll justify chauvinist thoughts that politics and war aren't really women's cup of tea, and that Eowyn, who already knows "necessary" self-defense (think "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"), is meant to stay at home and prepare/keep safe her men's food and bed.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

What do people think?

I think that she was beyond caring about such things. She would have gone out looking for death by some other, probably less honourable means if she had survived the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

[Alfirin]

I for one, agree with the though that Eowyn's choice might have been considered serious deriliction of duty and indeed had she survived without wound she might have had a trial in her future (assuming Rohan uses the trial by jury system) In some ways this is another advantage to her marrying Faramir, it gets her out of Rohan while she is still seen as a big war heroine, before the ardor of the people cools and akward questions like the above get asked. Lucky for her nothing happened in her absense. Imagine the reception she would have gotten if in her absence Rohan really had been attacked (maybe by a large force of Dunlendings off to join Sauron at the battle who saw the King and co. departing and though this too good an opportunity to miss).

Since we are speculating a bit I had a though of my own. Does anyone else think its possible that this wasn't the first time Eowyn had played at being Durnhelm. No one in the muster seems to find it odd that a warrior called Durnhelm is riding with them a warrior who, if this was the first time, nobody would have ever seen before. More to the point, Theoden has no problem having Durnhelm as his standard bearer and right hand man in the battle itself. As I recall, Theoden (who as king presumably has the choice of anyone in the whole muster to ride with him in battle as standard bearer) specifically asks for Durnhelm which is a little odd for someone he would have never seen before (if you were picking someone to ride with you as your bearer woulnt you choose someone you knew was reliable in a pinch rather that a complete stranger?)

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Alfirin, I think you'll find that Guthlaf was Theoden's standard-bearer, not Eowyn/Dernhelm.

Eowyn seems to have ridden to Gondor in Elfhelm's wing, then sneaked up to the back of Theoden's First Eored just before the first charge is going in (after gaining the outworks).

Though I must say I do think that something peculiar is going on here, does Elfhelm know that Dernhelm is Eowyn? He certainly knows all about 'Master Bag', and

there seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm

Not sure how far this goes! Is Elfhelm simply in on the plan to bring Merry along or is he in on the identity of Eowyn? If so, why not expose her?

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for all the responses!

Lindale:

You first said here that:

I think they love her too much to judge her... and remember that this was a time of war; could they afford to think of such "trivial" things, like her joining them? Would they perhaps be angry when they discover her? Likely, but I think they couldn't spend too much time for that; the most they could have done was send her home with an escort and a terrible sermon.

I think you're wrong; because in the sort of system of government Rohan had monarchs ruled as well as reigned; and matters concerning members of the royal family would be dealt with by the monarch.

Like a person in any position of considerable power, Eowyn's uncle or brother would be making decisions that they would find unpleasant. That would include sitting in judgement on close relatives, such as Eowyn. While there's no doubt that they genuinely loved her, it would still be their duty as monarchs to judge her bad behaviour.

Second, you said that:

Or perhaps, would they have deemed the judgment of making Eowyn regent a bad idea (because girls-can't-follow-orders-the-way-real-men-could)? I like the idea. Remember that it wasn't Theoden's or Eomer's choice to make her regent? It was Hama's suggestion, who thought that the last of the House of Eorl weren't Theoden and Eomer but Eowyn. That'll justify chauvinist thoughts that politics and war aren't really women's cup of tea, and that Eowyn, who already knows "necessary" self-defense (think "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"), is meant to stay at home and prepare/keep safe her men's food and bed.

You're wrong in saying that it was Hama's choice to make her regent. Hama suggested her appointment to Theoden, who followed his advice and chose to make her regent. The appointment appeared to be a popular choice, Eowyn being regarded as a woman of ability.

I suggest that the fact of her desertion might rebound on Theoden, or his historical reputation if he died in battle. He was, after all, the one who appointed her as regent; and like any one who appoints unqualified people who turn out badly, would take any blame.

Eonwe:

I agree with your suggestion that had Eowyn survived the battle, she would still be 'looking for death by some other, probably less honourable means'.

Alfirin:

I'd reached the same conclusion as you that by her marriage to Faramir, Eowyn became a Gondorian, and was conveniently outside the influence of the law of Rohan. I agree completely with what you said here:

it gets her out of Rohan while she is still seen as a big war heroine, before the ardor of the people cools and awkward questions like the above get asked. Lucky for her nothing happened in her absense. Imagine the reception she would have gotten if in her absence Rohan really had been attacked (maybe by a large force of Dunlendings off to join Sauron at the battle who saw the King and co. departing and though this too good an opportunity to miss).

There is still the issue, as you and Rumil have said, about what kind of understanding was between Elfhelm and Dernhelm. While there are explanations for why Eowyn's desertion had no legal consequences for her, I'm more surprised that Elfhelm's giving aid and comfort to a deserter appeared to have no such consequences for him. After all, he is the equivalent of a senior officer, of whom much would be expected.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor.

What I'm wondering is:

How did she get away with it at all? She was left behind in order to be the acting ruler of Rohan - but she disappeared. How was she not instantly missed by those left behind in Edoras? Why did someone not immediately ride at full speed after Theoden to inform him that the Lady Eowyn was missing?

In any case, what did the people of Rohan think when their ruler went missing? Any thoughts?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

What I'm wondering is:

How did she get away with it at all? She was left behind in order to be the acting ruler of Rohan - but she disappeared. How was she not instantly missed by those left behind in Edoras? Why did someone not immediately ride at full speed after Theoden to inform him that the Lady Eowyn was missing?

In any case, what did the people of Rohan think when their ruler went missing? Any thoughts?

Presumably Éowyn would have designated someone before she left to stand in for her. Maybe the former condition of Théoden under the influence of Wormtongue was known to the general population in Rohan, and thus Éowyn's forced role as a nursemaid was known also. In that case, the people could well have taken pity on her, and being a fairly warlike people, understood her desire to stand or fall in battle. Perhaps the severity of the situation too lent her some degree of leeway from the people. They were well aware the host of Théoden stood a real chance of not returning, and it would be only a matter of time before they all were rooted out and enslaved. I don't think they would have wished the House of Eorl to fall to that personally.

[Mithalwen]

Erkenbrand was left in military charge. I suspect Elfhelm tipped him the wink.

[mark12_30]

Or, Aragorn and the topic of unpraised valour

This discussion continues to weigh on my mind:

‘A time may come soon,’ said he, ‘when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.’

And she answered: ‘All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. ’

I grant the weight of Eowyn's words;. "Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?"

But neither do I disagree with what Aragorn said, nor feel that he had no right to say it.

From The Council of Elrond:

‘If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dúnedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave?

‘And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. “Strider” I am to one fat man who lives within a day’s march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown.'

And again:

From "Strider":

‘It would take more than a few days, or weeks, or years, of wandering in the Wild to make you look like Strider,’ he answered. ‘And you would die first, unless you are made of sterner stuff than you look to be.’

On his behalf, Aragorn had every right, I think, to talk about "valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds .... Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised."