Saruman's death

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?.

I think the reason the Istari 'wore' physical bodies was so they would be able to actually experience life in Middle-earth from the true perspective of the Children that abode there. Presumably that would give them greater insight on the manner of which to approach the fight against Sauron. That fact alone wouldn't affect their life potential as angelic spirits, though. Gandalf and Saruman experienced only physical 'deaths'; Gandalf's spirit being allowed to return to complete his task, and Saruman's ultimately rejected. The quote you provided from UT about Saruman is significant, and that does support the idea that he was effectively banished from ME. I wouldn't think his sins grave enough to warrant sending him to the Void, though. Sauron himself could have gotten a second chance after the fall of Morgoth, if he'd really wanted one.
Sauron's loss of body at the hands of the Last Alliance (and after the Ring was destroyed) was due to a sudden loss of power, quite different from the Istari who 'died'.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

The Valar themselves were only 'managers', so to speak. Though the idea to send the Istari and physically embody them had been theirs, it was apparently beyond their authority to approve, needing the 'Head' to do so. If the initial idea had to be given the go-ahead by Eru, I would think any changes to the plan would have to be approved by him as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

Ha, well done indeed with the research on the last quote. I guess that changes the matters a lot. In any case, my former speculation was indeed just a speculation, or a theory. The thing with Istari bodies is probably a more complicated one. I agree with Inziladun about the need of approval from Eru, since the Valar needed his approval for the Istari project (or at least "perhaps", as it is said in one of the drafts), that's the basis for all the thoughts of Gandalf's return being approved by Eru himself and not just by Valar. Okay, so the question would be: what would happen to a perfectly faithful and hard-labouring Gandalf who would happen to die along the way, if there was no intervention from Eru? I believe the gaze of Saruman's spirit into the West is the answer: it really does not seem that a dead Wizard would expect to go beyond the Circles of the World (but perhaps he just was not prepared for the alternative?), but that even a formless Maia, however diminished in power in Middle-Earth, would be once again accepted back in Valinor. Also, think of one more thing. The destruction of a Wizard's physical body does not put him into the same basket with Men, in the sense that they would go to where the Men do. This has several reasons. Firstly, Death for Men is a gift from Eru, and it would seem to me against all logic to actually give the Wizards a gift intended for totally different type of creatures and reserved for them alone. And secondly, whoever said that an incarnate Wizard would be any closer to Men than to Elves. The Wizards' forms were those of the Children of Ilúvatar, and that is, both Men and Elves. The fact that they had beards is merely a cosmetic thing (not to speak of that Círdan had a beard as well), and let us not forget that Men themselves considered the Wizards being Elvish (although for various reasons based on rather simple and surface perceptions). It is indeed told that they were walking among both Men and Elves who perceived them as ones "of them". In any case, in the matters of death the Maiar were still far closer to Elves than to Men (heading to the West, Mandos, etc., basically inside Arda, not somewhere out of it, like Men did), and it would be really really strange to have such a big change in the paradigm of the world by the Istari's incarnation. The Istari were still mere messengers, not really a big deal in the large scale, whereas the matter of Death of Men seems from all that is said in the books as one of the last things that could ever be tampered with (we had Beren, Lúthien and a few others whose fate was actually changed in some way).

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

Well, acccording to the UT he also desecrated/destroyed Isildur's reamains, I dont know how bad an act that is reckoned in ME, but it proably doesnt count well for one.

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet. Oh and I realize I mad one addional mistake if their fea had returned to Valinor they would have been serving Orome, not Yavanna (I got their summoner and Radagast's confused) But I also like imagining that they were still around somewhere maybe in the far south of Far Harad (far enough to actually be beyond Saurons control) or way up North among the Lossoth or both (hey with two of them there no guarantee they stayed together)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet.

Nay, what I had in mind was what seemed to be Tolkien's most immediate fear, something he seemed to consider most likely of all possibilities, and that was not just being slain, nor by Saruman (that was really just a distinct possibility that was only hinted), but that they turned to evil themselves. THAT was why I said they would be locked up.

Originally Posted by UT, Istari, note #3

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two," since they were not concerned in the history oh the North-west of Middle-earth. "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."