Elves and Gondor

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Consider what Beregond said to Pippin at Minas Tirith, before the siege : "Things move in the East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported ; and north in Mirkwood and beyond ; and south in Harad".

How did Beregond get this information ? Certainly not via Denethor's use of the Palantir, which was secret. There must therefore have been some travelling to and from Gondor and these other parts of Middle Earth.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Consider what Beregond said to Pippin at Minas Tirith, before the siege : "Things move in the East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported ; and north in Mirkwood and beyond ; and south in Harad".

How did Beregond get this information ? Certainly not via Denethor's use of the Palantir, which was secret. There must therefore have been some travelling to and from Gondor and these other parts of Middle Earth.

Though the ultimate source of Denethor's knowledge was indeed secret, I think he did have counsellors with whom he met to discuss intelligence and strategic matters. I can see rumours emanating from those meetings filtering down to the citizenry.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, now that's a significant quote. However, I do not believe that this would be a proof of some contact of Gondor with Beornings or Thranduil's folk. Rumors pass, even the Hobbits in the Shire knew about Mordor being inhabited again - and how far it is from Mordor to the Shire? The Gondorians, diminished however their realm may have been, still probably kept a close eye on what's going on in the East, and also upon Mirkwood. It was almost their border! The Rohirrim would know that forces are stirring in Mirkwood again. The Gondorians had numerous experiences with that from earlier days, when their realm reached far beyond Anduin. But the Elves of Mirkwood are far too remote for the Gondorians to reach. And anyway, rumors pass. The kingdom of Erebor was certainly significant enough* so that the Gondorians would know that the Easterlings are threatening it, but they probably had hardly any contact with it at all, not any diplomatic contacts. Isn't it in a way interesting to see late Third-Age Kingdom of Dale in the eyes of Gondor as a faraway rich and relatively powerful country?
Also what you said about Palantír doesn't necessarily mean that Denethor would not share his knowledge. He would not say from where it came, but he could tell his generals about this (and we know he did share some facts, as people were wondering how wise he is and how surprisingly much he knows). So he could also see the war in the far northeast and so it reached Beregond's ears.

*A side note (off-topic, but it occured to me now) - actually, curious, isn't it, just from the economic point of view: it would make sense for the Gondorians to actually maintain contact with Erebor, and the Northernmen in Dale and Lake-Town (as in old times anyway). It would be nice to have a route around the eastern borders of Mirkwood. But alas, such journey was probably impossible by the end of the Third Age, as the threat would be far too big. Easterlings and Dol Guldur - not a nice view. The only ones who would come to Erebor from south would be the messengers of Sauron... just as they did.

But it makes a lot more sense, in the light of this, that there were basically only two major trade routes in M-E, that is the west-east one from let's say Lindon to Erebor and the other NW-SE from Lindon as far as Gondor. And now it is clear to me at last why they form this sort of "incomplete triangle": as the third part of the triangle, i.e. Gondor-Erebor, just wouldn't work now.

(x-ed with Inzil, and I see he brings the same point)

[JeffF.]

Don't forget the wine of Dorwinion (Northeast of the Sea of Ruhn) which was valued by Thradnuil's elves (from the Hobbit).

There must have been much overseas trade by Gondor (with whom I can't speculate) in order for a powerful people like the Corsairs of Umbar to pirate from.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

Don't forget the wine of Dorwinion (Northeast of the Sea of Ruhn) which was valued by Thradnuil's elves (from the Hobbit).

There must have been much overseas trade by Gondor (with whom I can't speculate) in order for a powerful people like the Corsairs of Umbar to pirate from.

Yep, Dorwinion is quite interesting place by the way, though I wonder whether by the time of the War of the Ring it wasn't either ruled by the Easterlings, or directly taken from them by Bardings. But I was referring to the major trade routes, this was probably just a very small one. Anyway, we are getting off topic... but the question of Umbar is actually interesting, it would maybe do for its own thread.

[mark12_30]

Having read the whole thread... I'm going to go back to the elf-friend theory. Haldir spoke Westron with somebody in order togather his news. Or did he always and only eavesdrop?

The borders of Lorien were well protected, and one way or the other, trespassers would be dealt with. What constitues a trespasser? one who comes without permission, or perhaps with intent to do harm. Lorien rarely invites guests. Did they even invite anybody? maybe not. So maybe Haldir mostly met folks on the fringes.

In the west, Gildor knew Bilbo. If you had asked Whil Whitfoot if the Shire had contacts with the elves, he would have frowned, hoped that the Tooks had been behaving lately, and said No, except for maybe that fool Bilbo. Officially there aer no dealings. Unless it's them moonstruck Tooks....

"Frodo went tramping all over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, and to the amazement of sensible folk he was sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. Merry and Pippin suspected that he visited the Elves at times, as Bilbo had done." --The Shadow of the Past

"There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could. Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning; but they were leaving Middle-earth and were no longer concerned with its troubles. There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits’ chief source of news from distant parts – if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor." --The Shadow of the Past

Little of all this, of course, reached the ears of ordinary hobbits. But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales... --The Shadow of the Past

‘Yes, it is Elves,’ said Frodo. ‘One can meet them sometimes in the Woody End. They don’t live in the Shire, but they wander into it in Spring and Autumn, out of their own lands away beyond the Tower Hills...." --Three is Company

Elves, from away beyond the Tower Hills, wander. Spring and Fall. That's enough for many many fanfictions right there...
Lorien elves wander much much less if at all. .... except for Haldir and his ilk?

‘Welcome!’ the Elf then said again in the Common Language, speaking slowly. ‘We seldom use any tongue but our own; for we dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk. Even our own kindred in the North are sundered from us. But there are some of us still who go abroad (where?) for the gathering of news (from whom?) and the watching of our enemies (which ones?), and they speak the languages of other lands (plural! Not just Westron?) I am one. Haldir is my name. My brothers, Rúmil and Orophin, speak little of your tongue. (But what other tongues do they speak? Any?)
‘But we have heard rumours of your coming, for the messengers of Elrond passed by Lórien on their way home up the Dimrill Stair. We had not heard of hobbits, or halflings, for many a long year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth. --Lothlorien

(Oh, come on! Been living under a rock? Anyone who knows Elves that travel westward to Mithlond knows the road goes through the Shire. Elrond has always known about them; Galadriel certainly knew about them; Gandalf in the White Council knows about them; it's the Rangers' job to guard the West, including Hobbits, both in the Shire and in Bree. Exactly where does Haldir get his news from? Not anybody that knows of Hobbits! So doesn't that leave Gondor and Rohan and... maybe Laketown? Who else?


The more I read all this, the more I am reminded of Littlemanpoet's old thread, "It Feels Different Near The Shire." He has a point. Faerie in the northwest ebbs and flows and blows on the wind. Rivendell is not so far away, neither are the Tower Hills, Elves pass by occasionally, those rangers know more than they say, foxes talk, and old Tom is between the Old Forest and the Downs. What's a Riverdaughter? Whatever they are, Tom found one. Even the common Hobbits can disappear in a twinkle when someone clumsy like you or I comes by making a noise like a thousand elephants which they can hear a mile off.

Gondor is isolated. Are there elf-friends living there? I cannot believe that there are none. But they aren't ruling the city, either. They are fringy, and they know how to keep quiet. Perhaps they've been told to keep quiet if they ever want to see an elf again. (Those who have been to Faerie and grown as a result, keep it a secret; that's part of it. How can you share that with someone who hasn't been? See Smith of Wootten Major.)