Robbing the Cradle

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I dunno, do you really think the books would have mentioned the attack on Celebrian's party had she not been captured and tortured, and as a result left Middle Earth? Sure, something this grave probably never happened to Arwen, but since the high pass over the Misty Mountains were by all account dangerous for many reasons, and the trip down to Lorien hardly a Sunday stroll either, I actually find it unlikely that Arwen could have made that journey so often without anything going wrong or ever being in danger.

The trek to Lórien was by no means a walk in the park, especially after Sauron formally arose and declared himself. Perhaps, though, Arwen's journeys weren't actually all that frequent, which could reduce the probability of anything happening. When she went to Lórien, she seems to have spent a good deal of time there each visit. When she and Aragorn first met in Rivendell, she explained the fact that he had not seen her before by saying she'd only just come back after spending 'many years' there. Aragorn was then about twenty and had never seen her, so there's a good fifteen or sixteen years for that visit.
She was in Lórien again some twenty-nine years later (T.A 2980) when she and Aragorn plighted their troth.
Also, The Tale of Years says this:

3009 [T.A]- Elrond sends for Arwen, and she returns to Imladris; the Mountains and all lands eastward are becoming dangerous.

Looks to me as if she'd probably been there ever since her tryst with Aragorn.

Which leads me to what I think is the greatest argument against her being a hardened adventurer who had faced real peril: if Arwen ever had been in any real danger, Elrond would surely have stopped allowing her to leave long before 3009. There's no one so paranoid as a father with a daughter. This I know from personal experience.

[Andsigil]

It's been interesting to see the ways in which this thread has drifted since I started it. As always, BDers provide a lot of information and insight into all things Tolkien.

To add a bit further, to this discussion, I had originally wondered about the age and wisdom discrepancy between Arwen and Aragorn solely as a matter of years and accumulated knowledge rather than as a matter between races.

I know this tends to go back to a default of elves and men because elves have virtually ageless bodies and live thousands of years, but I thought this could apply to humans, as well. For example, some of the Numenoreans lived for centuries while "lesser men", who were still of the same race, lived only one century (at best). Perhaps even a common son of Numenor might often have looked at a Northwoman beauty and thought, "By Arda, but she is immature. Even at thirty."?

I often wax philosophical about the subject of immortality, seeing as how we humans are forever looking for it. I think it would ultimately be a demographic disaster for humanity to discover a practical way to physically regenerate our aging bodies. Moreover, I think our human minds aren't hard-wired to handle immortality.

To illustrate, I once wrote a series of short stories about a human male in a low-magic, early renaissance setting, who discovered that he never aged past thirty and had lived for over 900 years. Here is an excerpt I've pulled out of my computer's dustiest and most cobweb-filled archives:

‘So, what is immortality like?’ you might ask. Foremost, I’ve learned over the centuries to be amused by the fools who practice alchemy and wizardry to seek immortality, as well as those who pay them to “find” it. I have no doubt that, if they did happen to discover some magic elixir, there would be no end to those who would take it without question, as long as it gave them everlasting life. The highest king to the grubbiest peasant would gulp a gallon at once without forethought of the consequences. In the end they would all regret it, for I have come to believe that human beings were never meant to live as long as I have, let alone forever.

I can barely begin to describe the boredom of immortality. Utter, complete, total, final, and absolute are words that come to mind, but despite the abundance of such adjectives, it’s still difficult to describe. Over the centuries this boredom pushed me to ever stranger, more deviant, and sordid ways of finding stimulus; anything to relieve the crushing monotony of immortality.

Thoughts?

[Lindale]

I think Elves have a different sort of immortality: they live, day after day, age after age, in the pursuit of Art, and if they get it, they seek to preserve it. It is in their nature to be artsy, even perfectionists, after all. I don't think they'd be bored... not even the hot-headed Feanor got bored; instead he sired seven sons and made endless jewels. Now one might argue that perhaps after the Silmarilli Feanor could have gotten bored of perfection, supposing things went well and Morgoth never happened... but I just don't see how Elves can get bored. I think they don't because the pursuit of perfection takes time (unless they're as terribly gifted as Feanor, but none have been); and when they do reach a certain level of perfection, like in Lothlorien perhaps, they tend to preserve, to freeze, that world of Art and are content within this space, living and wallowing in their glory.

Their notions of immortality are very different, from say Anne Rice's vampires, who don't really change but watch the world change, and thus lie their dilemmas. Rice's immortals are connected with the world; I think the Elves' forte is detachment from "worldly" concerns, especially seen after the Third Age. Like Galadriel, who though aids the Fellowship, laments the end of her perfect little world to which she has become attached.

But that's just my interpretation.